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What Mode is This Then?

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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/16/2001 11:05 PM

Doug McMullen (6014) wrote:

Hey Paul.

I checked out your website and your guitar playing is rather impressive. I have to wonder what kind of straw-man set-up a player like you is running with this post. Are you saying you don't understand modes?

Okay, here's what mode that is:

It's no mode at all... what note is a C?

Why it's a C of course, and depending on context it's anything from the tonic to the maj seventh.

Music doesn't exist in a vacuum.

You can call this a C ionian scale...



But if I play it against against an F chord in a F major progression it's F lydian and against an A minor chord in an A minor progression it'll be A aeolian.

Back to that scale you gave.
If the set of notes you gave is analyzed with the lowest note considered the tonic it breaks down into:

1 b2 m3 M3 #4 5 6 b7 8

That isn't a mode of any conventional scale I'm familiar with but the chromaticism of it reminds me a lot of a 'scale' I use a lot when playing over blues type progressions... I play dorian mode+pentatonic major. This creates a nearly (but not entirely) chromatic mix of notes... There are some trouble notes in the set but all in all it's quite useful for moving between major and minor ideas over a blues progression.

That scale pattern you've given looks like a minor+major thing for use over Blues. Sorry it's too late and I've had too many beers to tell you blues in what key those notes work with, but I don't think A is the tonic (unless you're into that middle easterny b2).

By the way... that chord progression you give on your website is fun, but both the A and A# work on the G7#5#9.

Doug.



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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:16 AM

Stone Dragon (8501) wrote:

I get the feeling he's trying to bait me, because I haven't answered his private messages regarding my Applying Modes lesson and a post I made about A Myxolydian.





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:36 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

That's right! Take the bait and tell me what mode it is Stone Dragon.LOL.You obviously don't know the answer to this one or you would have already posted the answer. Good Luck you won't find this one in ya mode books buddy!Look in older method books and when you guess this one I've got another one for you.Oh and by the way Doug that's not the answer... And just a thought Stone Dragon, an A mixolydian is exactly the same as an A dominant7th scale! I sent the email to you privately and if you want to puff your chest out in public, go ahead Make my days!
Paul C.





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:49 AM

Stone Dragon (8501) wrote:

I'll debate you on theory until we're both blue in the face, but you should probably be aware that when posts get personal around here, they get deleted.



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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:23 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I posted this as a bit of a brain teaser. I am staggered at the amount of people who base there entire playing on the modal approach!Doesn't anyone do it the old fashioned way? And no, that is not the right answer..People who do play the old fashioned way (so it seems), will recognize this scale instantly,as it really has 2 names..There's a clue?I have another scale to post after this one..Bit of fun..Get the modalists Thinking! LOL.Let's see what mode this ones related to!I can't wait.Whatever happened to the old 2, 5, 1., and the 1, 6, 2, 5.and the rythm changes..and the blues.
And Tell me what's the Straw Man expression mean?
Paul C.



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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:46 AM

Stone Dragon (8501) wrote:

This scale is refered to by several names, depending on who's doing the talking and how it's being used:

Symetrical Diminished Scale

Diminished Whole Tone

Diminished Half Tone

Whole/Half Diminished

Half/Whole Diminished

Etc...


Unlike the modes of the Major Scale which have a history of usage in western music stretching back to approximately 50 A.D. and a nomenclature stretching back to approximately 510 A.D., this scale is a fairly recent invention.



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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 1:15 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

Partly right..It is an A dominant 8 note scale that the be bop players have used since the advent of the Genre..And I'm not getting personal..I am offering to people who want an alternative to the modal approach..And if you start with a tone and go tone semi tone tone semitone etc then it is a diminished scale.





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 2:48 AM

Doug McMullen (6014) wrote:

No, Paul, actually Stone's entirely right... you've just come up with yet another name for the same thing. (I'm kicking myself for not seeing the diminished scale since I was practicing it yesterday LOL

A straw man is a set-up. A thing that is created solely for the purpose of being knocked down.

You posted a question you already knew the answer to (and phrased it in a deliberately misleading way, asking 'what mode is this then?' when you knew it wasn't modal at all) literally hoping people would answer it incorrectly so that you could display your 'superior knowledge.'

So, when I said this was a straw man, I'd say I nailed the mode of your question, if not the scale itself.

I'm curious, what part of my answer was wrong? I said the scale wasn't modal, and it isn't. I said the A wasn't tonic... and diminished chord/scales are not used as tonic, they typically function as connecting chords. I said the scale looked synthetic (it is...) and I said it had blues applications. It surely does.

This bit about mode vs old fashioned... I don't get it. Modes aren't new (Stone already pointed this out rather forcefully). Modal thinking isn't in conflict with 'old fashioned' theory (whatever that is exactly). What's the beef? I mean... "it's a dominant chord" "it's mixolydian chord" <--- these phrases mean the same thing to me. What's your alternative?

Is there some good reason to -not- understand modes?

Modal thinking has helped me understand the major scale, it's interval structure, how those intervals are altered, and how chords are harmonized.

Every 'anti-mode' guy I ever talked to has always said the same thing.... "Modes are a waste of time, all you need to do is understand the major scale, it's interval structure, how those intervals are altered and how chords are harmonized."

So, the only part of that statement I disagree with is, 'modes are a waste of time.'

Doug.





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 3:27 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I think you'll find out that Miles Davis' Kind of Blue was around the time when modes became popular to people..It seems most are like sheep and everybody follows the trend setters.. I guarantee that most great be boppers don't use modes.. they use there heart and ears and plain old scales.. and no I wasn't trying to display any superior knowledge, we are all Equal grasshopper.. not everybody is into modes.. seems like your learning the same thing over and over when if you learn the basic major minor diminished wholetone and major and minor pentatonics and know how to use them that's all i think you need to know..and Stone did not answer the question. the scale is and always be in that form an A dominant 8 note scale.. Stone is wrong Live with it!





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 3:35 AM

Maciek Sakrejda (8047) wrote:

First
and no I wasn't trying to display any superior knowledge, we are all Equal grasshopper

Then
Stone is wrong Live with it!


Hmm...

-m





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 12:20 PM

Doug McMullen (6014) wrote:

Paul... it's one of several symmetrical scales. Symmetrical.

It isn't an A dominant bebop, or rather, it isn't _only_ that. It's a whole helluva a lot more useful to understand the symmetry and how that affects how to use that scale than it is to target that bass note as the tonic. Symmetrical scales don't really have tonics at all. (Forgive me for missing the boat in my first post, by the way... although I identified the intervals correctly, when I was tossing the scale around in my head I inadvertently turned the #4 into a 4... which is how I got all caught up in chromatic blues)

Here are the ascending minor thirds of your scale:


The tonality is entirely ambiguous (and clearly diminished) ... that scale DOES NOT have to be an A _anything_. I'm not going to sit here and lecture an expert jazz guitarist on things he doesn't need to know. But the error here is not mine, or Stone's, its yours.

You're doing something which is fairly common, and fairly annoying to someone like me.

You've been blessed with enough inherent musicality to become an expert guitarist. For someone like you, a lot of theory looks like unnecessary baggage. Moreover, even when there are theory points you misunderstand and misapply you know that all you need to do is trust your ears to find the proper path. You think it has to work this way for everyone, or that it should. You probably can't quite understand or believe me when I say that thinking (not listening, thinking... thinking really hard) about music and theory has helped me _hear_ better, be a better musician... in fact, be a musician at all. Relying solely on my inherent musical gifts did not take me very far.

The natural musician has a very hard time believing that their 'gifts' can be acquired, can be learned... or that theory would actually be involved in the acquiring process. It can be.

You teach, and I think these points are important ones for a teacher. Most music teachers are evaluated on the basis of their ability to perform music. It's actually bizarre, shouldn't a teacher be evaluated on their ability to teach. It's kind of funny. The best music schools are known for having the best most talented students... isn't that backwards? Shouldn't the 'best' music school be the one that can take the _least_ gifted students and turn them into musicians?

There's more than one way to learn music. Paul, I have little doubt that you can do more on a guitar with a scale that you misunderstand completely, than I can with any scale. (Gimme a couple years though, I'm working on it!) That fact, however, does not make your misunderstandings 'right' ... it just means your strengths as a player take you right thru minor intellectual errors.

I wonder which of us, however, would do better teaching a not especially gifted guitarist how to improvise. My money would be on me, despite the fact you can play circles around me.

Tiger Woods takes lessons from Butch Harmon... Butch Harmon never won a major and never will.

You've said elsewhere that improvisation is not a mystery. I agree, but I honestly don't believe you understand it, not _in a communicable way_, and not as well as you think you do, and yes I have read your article.

Try taking your teaching ego down a few notches... it won't diminish who you are as a musician at all.

Doug.


I think you'll find out that Miles Davis' Kind of Blue was around the time when modes became popular to people Really? I seem to recall this having been discussed on the fretbuzz earlier... you might want to do a search on "Kind of Blue" in the fretbuzz and read up on it.

It seems most are like sheep and everybody follows the trend setters.. Oh come on! You're getting silly! That's like, um, about 5 trends ago . I haven't seen too many sheep flocking to free jazz! In fact, if there's a trend lately, it's back to the old school with hard bop and swing.







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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 1:28 PM

Doug McMullen (6014) wrote:

sorry I won't be able to reply to any follow ups this post might stir... or at leazst not for four days. Take care folks, see yaz wednesday next.


Doug







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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 11:54 PM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

Hi Doug,
Yes you are absolutely right.The scale is symetrical..I'm sorry that I had you and Stone confused. I should have mentioned that the scales'
root was A. And you stated that you would make a better teacher..Well maybe you would. (I think most people would chose someone who could play to someone who talked about how the text book tells you how to.LOL.) How can you possibly make a statement like that from the other side of the world? You don't even know me, or ever heard me play in a different setting to the one on my web page..The files on my web page are from an album I will be releasing soon and it is intended for the normal listening public, and if there are some musicians out there that it touches I am gratefull.I guess you missed the statement I made when I told you that I have studied the modal system..I had to do it as part of my study at the Conservatorium. And I also learnt a different approach, which I embraced as the way that I wanted to play..
Mike Noch who I studied piano with, taught me that scale that has caused so much dispute..When he taught it to me : 1. he said that it was symetrical..2. it was called a dominant 8 note scale.. and 3. it is a diminished scale when the order of the notes is tone semitone tone semitone Symetrical..Now he is an absolute master musician and composer and frankly I really don't care what you think of me..

I teach my students to use the other senses that we are ALL blessed with..People can possess a natural ability to maybe get to a certain standard..(and I am not talking about the young genius' of the world, they are an exception)
Then after that it is just hours upon hours of hard work..The hours I spent practising the guitar approach you are ridiculing.. about 10 hours a day for 6 years and ongoing, when I can get the time between my projects.I was lucky enough early on to be able to hear everything that I played spending most of my early years as a first call session guitarist..This was invaluable as I could try different approaches and hear the outcome..Invaluable experience..
I can't think of an instance in a playing situation where a mode works better than any other approach..( sorry I'll correct myself, maybe when the chord progression has been tailored to fit the modes..)
I teach people to play the guitar not modes..there are things that make a good guitar player..What about your ears and your heart?
And here we are debating over scales and modes or whatever..How ridiculous! We're all into music aren't we? We embrace other religions and prophecies and food and customs..Why can't musicians accept that there are more than one way to acheive the same playing goal..People get there head around how to use modes, but tend to shy away from any other approach..Can you tell me why that is?
On closing. When I was first learning to play the guitar I bought a book on modes..I think that it had 10 pages in it..I felt so ripped off.Since that time I have bought a lot of books by different authors and they were loaded with music!
Examples you could play.Not how many ways I could play a major or minor scale..I have books by Joe Pass, Ted greene,Barry Gailbraith, Mickey Baker,and Videos buy John Schofield, Larry Carlton, Duke Robillard etc, etc..And I must have missed something but not one of the books or videos made reference to the modal approach..
In improvisation scales play a very small role..
They are just your pallette from which to create melody..
And thanks for posting a letter that was sent to you in private..My reply was between you and I..But you didn't even take the time to reply..
And WE are bickering about nothing really..WN is a place for guitarists to learn..Let them make the choice which road to take instead of slamming a different approach to the only one that you have learnt.. I'd really like to hear you play..I don't see any mp3's on your home page for all to hear..anyone can go to my site and hear me..Maybe you could send me a file of you playing..
Paul Cheeseman.
ps.. Aren't Modes derived from Scales anyway???LOL.
And personally I'd prefer to learn from someone who could play over someone who quotes from a text book.Students go to learn from players not talkers. A very dear friend of mine studied guitar at GIT and was telling me of the great guitarists that used to come to the colledge and play and share there musical experiences and approaches..He was so excited about learning from people who didn't shove text books down his throat.And he didn't learn a modal approach, he chose to learn to play the guitar like me!You are missing another point is that I have an excellent understanding of harmony and how to use it..I chose not to add the work of learning and applying the same scale seven times...And do me a favour forget about replying to anything that I post you obviously think that your way is the only way and you are going to disagree with everything that I have studied and apply on a daily basis.









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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 12:27 AM

Maciek Sakrejda (8047) wrote:

And do me a favour forget about replying to anything that I post you obviously think that your way is the only way and you are going to disagree with everything that I have studied and apply on a daily basis.

Ah yes, martyrdom. Another fun way to pin your opponents in a debate when you don't have a solid point to argue.

Doug (and Stone) never put down your way of playing or learning, Paul. They defended the modal approach. Some people, believe it or not, do appreciate a more intellectual approach to music.

I know I do. I don't really care whether it will make me a better player or not. I'm in it for the theory itself. It's kinda like math... It's an entirely fabricated science, but it does have useful applications. And some of the things you can do are just plain fascinating (to some) by themselves.

And I'll side with Doug on the teaching issue, too (although I think you may have misunderstood his concerns there). A great player does not make a great teacher. A musician who can effectively communicate the subtleties of music and the guitar makes a great teacher. If your guitar teacher can't communicate, you might as well go be self-taught.

-m











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:03 AM

Sharon Bakula (953) wrote:

Doug (and Stone) never put down your way of playing or learning, Paul. They defended the modal approach. Some people, believe it or not, do appreciate a more intellectual approach to music.

*raises hand* If I had to rely on my musical "instincts" to get through the learning process, I'd be lost.

And I'd take Doug over Paul as a teacher ANY day of the week, month, or year.













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:11 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

that's good for you..i can actually play and did it with a lot of hard work and dedication to THEORY.. It's sad that people won't try something a little different.. it's not like going to the dentist you know..













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:14 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I never said that I used my instincts..you are all ignoring my harmonic and theoretical background..Jeez some people!!!













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:21 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

and I'm defending mine!!!













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:41 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I'm wondering if the Beatles or Hanson knew there modes. LOL LOL















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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 11:36 AM

Sharon Bakula (953) wrote:

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Hanson do know this stuff, lol. They all had years of classical piano lessons before they started playing as a band. I have a feeling they picked up quite a bit of music theory along the way. *grin*

As for the Beatles, I don't know about George (we'll leave John out of it as he's no longer with us), but the last I heard, Paul was still claiming not to know a thing about music theory. He seems to be quite happy relying on his instincts. How lovely for him...if I had instincts like those, I'd be happy doing it, too. LOL

Not that any of this has ANY bearing at all on this discussion. I just felt felt like sharing that.













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 3:00 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

Good Luck With That then LOL Put the blinkers on. Paul.











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:07 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

You are all missing the point ! There are other ways of achieving the same result...and go and learn guitar from someone who Can't play cause they obviously can't do what they preach...and lock yourselves in theory for ever and a day and forget about APPLYING it to playing..Open your thinking up and accept a different approach...it's easy just try.. and i'm not pinned I just don't want to waste my VALUABLE TIME debating with people who are obviously one eyed and don't want to even try and embrace SOMETHING DIFFERENT..YOU must have also missed the part when i said that I have studied the modes...at university level... not out of my bedroom like some!













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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:18 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I only wish that we could all be put in a room with our guitars together..maybe it would stop the slamming...It's cool how people gang up and don't even listen to a word they say...











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:37 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

Oh really A good player doesn't know how to teach.. what a load of #$%^. I have a degree in composition.. and lecture at University.. and do master classes.. you telling me you'd learn nothing from me.. Do you think that I would get the job if I couldn't deliver..LOL FOR THE 10 th time ( maybe it will sink in) I have studied modes..And CHOSE A DIFFERENT APPROACH when I was learning I tried everything that I could get my hands on then made the decision.. but then again I am a dedicated working musician.Do you only look at the modal lessons on the site? hmmm. you are all missing out on so much.. there is a lot to offer at this site that isn't connected with modes..Am I the only person in the world who doesn't use modes.. and the scale that I posted that started all this, I wonder if anyone has taken the time to play it a few times and tried it out with a play along over an A altered chord..I'd like to hear from someone who has not the ones debating cause your all 1 eyed try something different you never know you might improve your playing...I guess no one will ever read any of my articles or lessons anymore... ..sniff sniff sniff.
Over and OUT.. keep your modes...
PC LOL LOL LOL LOL











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 5:03 AM

Maciek Sakrejda (8047) wrote:

Oh really A good player doesn't know how to teach..

Did I ever say anything remotely similar to this statement? Paul, if you're not going to read my posts before replying, I'm not going to dignify yours with an answer. After all, why should I? You would only misconstrue them anyway and attack me on remarks I never made in the first place.

I've listened to some of your samples, and you're quite a guitar player. And for all I know, you're an amazing theoretician, musically speaking. Perhaps you even are a great teacher. However, as a debater, you (pardon the frankness) suck. You ignore the opposition's valid points, you ridicule points the opposition never actually made, you are argumentative, defensive, and you do seem to have a martyr complex (i.e., "Oh no, everybody is against me and they're so dumb it's not worth my time to argue with them").

Has anyone here said, "Paul, that's a stupid way to learn the guitar. Stick to modes."? I don't think so. I've heard more stuff like, "I like modes, but if you don't, that's OK".

You chose a different approach, but some of us didn't. And what's wrong with that?

-m

PS. I also never said you had no theory credentials, but you were pushing the "play from the heart" stuff that works great if you already know how to play and not so great if you have no idea.











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 12:55 PM

Sharon Bakula (953) wrote:

And for all I know, you're an amazing theoretician, musically speaking. Perhaps you even are a great teacher. However, as a debater, you (pardon the frankness) suck. You ignore the opposition's valid points, you ridicule points the opposition never actually made, you are argumentative, defensive, and you do seem to have a martyr complex (i.e., "Oh no, everybody is against me and they're so dumb it's not worth my time to argue with them").

Maciek, I agree completely. For all I know, Paul, you may be an absolutely brilliant teacher. It probably wasn't fair for me to say I wouldn't want to have you as one. But your argumentative and illogical behavior in this thread have been a turnoff to me and have made you seem like someone I wouldn't be comfortable with.

And it IS possible for someone who is a fantastic guitarist to be a lousy teacher. Teaching requires a whole additional set of skills, and being able to play guitar is no guarantee that a person has those. Read Jamey Andreas' article, "Teaching by Travel Brochure," for an entertaining and well-written exploration of this issue. :o) I'm not saying you are the type of teacher Jamey is describing there, not at all...I have no idea what sort you are. But he explains quite clearly why guitar playing ability is not a guarantee of teaching ability.

And to get back to what Maciek said, you seem to have a major problem with discussing issues in a logical manner. You have made some amazingly wild accusations in this thread, accusing people of saying things that nobody has EVER said. I don't see anyone saying that modes are the only thing there is to know about music. What I see them saying is that they feel that an understanding of modes is a valuable tool, something that has been very helpful to them. What's the problem? I just don't understand why you find that so objectionable, or what there is to argue about so strenuously.

Furthermore, I know that you are very experienced player, but so are the people you are arguing with, and I don't see you giving them credit for that. Basically, you keep telling them they don't know what they are talking about, and I think that's quite unfair. These are people who I have had many discussions with, whose lessons I have read, and who have answered my questions brilliantly, and I KNOW they know what they are talking about. By sitting there telling them they don't know anything, all you do is make yourself look silly.

But I think it's time for me to absent myself from this discussion. None of these guys need little old ignorant me to defend them anyway. Their knowledge and experience speaks for themselves. And it was probably silly of me to even jump in here. I let myself be drawn in because the people you have been attacking are some of the people who make WholeNote worthwhile for me, people who have bent over backwards to encourage me, to explain things to me, and make me feel like I can be a success. So I got a little ticked off by your attacks last night and posted something off the top of my head, without giving the matter sufficient thought.

But I don't see any point in continuing to argue. I don't have enough knowledge or experience to argue the main point of this thread...the value of modes...anyway. I will just close with a word of advice. I don't know how long you've been around WholeNote, but you seem to have been posting at fretbuzz only since August 10. So perhaps you don't know what a debt of gratitude some of us feel to guys like Doug McMullen and Stone Dragon. But I can assure you that attacking them is NOT a good way to make friends and influence people around here.











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 1:22 PM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

If I have offended anybody in any way, please accept my apology!
Sharon I never once said that they didn't know anything.And as this was posted for a reason, and did get out of hand I've got to accept that..I had some pretty demeaning statements directed at me by people who don't know squat about me also.
And yes this is actually the first message that I have posted and probably the last!I got a little heated and maybe over reacted to some things but like I said that's probably the last time!I've learnt a lot about the way things run around here at WholeNote..I'll just sit back and absorb for a while. I offered an article prior to this posting which will probably go by unnoticed after this. That's the way it goes.Who knows I might get the courage again one day...
Kindest Regards, Paul Cheeseman.











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/20/2001 4:50 PM

Sharon Bakula (953) wrote:

Apolology accepted. I'm kind of sorry I ever got involved in this discussion myself, lol.

As to who was at fault for what in this thread, I honestly don't care at this point. I have my own theories about who put a foot wrong where, but from what I can tell, hardly any of the parties involved (including myself) have been complete angels. So I will refrain from commenting on specifics, except to say that I gather that at least part of the conflict here stemmed from some earlier exhange(s) or other. And the problem with that is that when you start a new thread, a lot of the people reading it will be unaware of the prior context, and a lot of confusion can result. But it sounds like you're well aware of that now.

Sorry your first foray into posting at W/N was a negative one, and I hope that you won't let this keep you from trying again. Taking some time to observe the interactions here is probably a good idea; in fact I think it's a good practice to follow whenever one is new at a place online.









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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 4:51 AM

Chester Horton (10259) wrote:

Paul
i think YOU are missing the point here. It has nothing to do with "are modes the way to go or does Paul have something here" Instead of conveying something that I think can be of value to people here with your post, you set up a bait and then take exception when the guys who took it just plain out debated you at your own game(Quote)Stone is wrong Live with it! (end Quote)NOw tell me is this a correct statement or is it not. No it is not correct. Stone is not wrong so by elimination that makes you wrong, at least in the eyes of those who are following this thread. All I had to do was pull out any of the books I have on modes and scales to find out he was right, but I cannot find your name anywhere.
I think that all would have been well if you would have started your post by something like "although these scales can be called what stone listed above I think that I have found a better approach" Man you would have made me sit up and take notice and I am sure quite a few more.
I think that maybe the statements about teaching ability came from the form of your post in comparision to Dougs and Stone's normal approach and not in relation to your playing ability and knowledge.
I can tell you are a very intelligent and gifted musician and have something very important to share here. Please look at the entire thread above and with an open mind try to see how your post may have been interpreted.
I am looking forward to examining your lessons about this way of playing that doesn't involve modes.
Chet









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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 7:41 AM

Stefan Leonhardt (11767) wrote:

You know, this is the kind of thread that makes me think about quitting Wholenote.
I'm fed up with this ...

All this bickering, not letting it rest, not knowing when to stop, questioning other people's knowledge, getting personal, showing off one's knowledge/position/diplomas/achievements, ignorance and arrogance and intolerance.

Nobody said modes are the only way to go - I don't use them much anyway.
Paul, from the beginning, you gave the impression you were attacking modes, not presenting an alternative - that would look differently (i.e. there would have been no need to attack modes).
You probably won't change the minds of players that have been using modes for years, so there's no need to argue against them or attack them. If you want to present an alternative to the ones starting out, there is no need to attack modes, just give the alternative and let everybody try him/herself.

And please everybody - when you reply to a post and it's going to be controversial:
a) a little politeness doesn't hurt
b) Make sure you understood correctly what was said - don't misinterpret and distort somebody's message
Doug said if you want to take lessons, go for a good teacher, not a good player. I believe that's absolutely true. He didn't say anything about somebody who can't play or who just recites books.
But somebody who can explain something the way that you can understand it, who can cut the volume of material into easily digestable pieces, who has a plan and points you into the right direction.
I don't have to be able to play arpeggios in 16th notes at 140bpm to teach them to a student. But I have to be able to present the material to the student in a way that enables him or her to get it as easily as possible and to use it. A player who's fast but is so obsessed with his ability that he does not slow down or just says "These are the arpeggio shapes, learn them" does not help a beginner.
I have watched a bunch of instructional videos by great players and the learning effect was zero because they tore through the exercises, gave me a couple of licks I could copy an nothing more.

Satriani took lessons from a jazz pianist when learning guitar - the jazz pianist couldn't play guitar but he obviously was a good teacher.


What's this bickering about the name of a scale? You know it as an A dominant 8 note scale - does that mean it's the only correct name?
In my country - not just here - I have every rigth to call the note "B" "H" and everybody understands that.

And again: The fact that somebody is a better guitar player than another one does not mean that he's right.

Paul, some of the comments above address your posts, but some of those comments apply to most of the posts I've read here. I'm sick and tired of it - I guess I need a long holiday off Wholenote.












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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 10:05 AM

Tracy Hardy Johnson (11666) wrote:

Or do what I do . . . just don't read posts that look like they're contentious, conflictual, or just downright mean or ornery.

I set the "new message" view to "Subject" and I can scroll through the message intros easily to see where the threads are going and if they're worth my precious time.

I realize that's easier for me to do at WN since I don't have any emotional investment into guitar playing. But as we've said before, if folks don't respond to nasty posts, they are very soon forgotten.

Now, see if you all can refrain from responding to THIS post!!

;^)











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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/18/2001 10:42 AM

Sandra Goodfellow (6568) wrote:

Well Stephan, if you do take a break from WN, I hope you won't make it too long. I always think of you as one of the serious guitar guys and we need you.

Sandra









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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/19/2001 8:36 AM

Huw Murdoch (996) wrote:

You learnt from Mike Noch and you are
standing here trying to show everyone how
good you are? I wonder if he spends his time
in discussion forums trying to prove how
incorrect everyone is.







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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/20/2001 4:59 PM

Doug McMullen (6014) wrote:

Sorry, just as this is winding down I'm back to stir the pot I guess. But in the interest of accuracy I should say that, not having given Bebop scales more than a passing glance I assumed that scale in question could in fact be a Dominant Bebop scale as well as a diminished scale.... welll ... The thread got me interested in Bebop scales and I checked out a few in Mark Levine's Jazz Theory Book.

At least according to Levine this: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 1 <-----------is a dominant bebop scale.

Doug.










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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/20/2001 5:18 PM

Stone Dragon (8501) wrote:

There you go.... stirring up trouble again.

That's the scale I've always seen referred to as "The Bebop scale". Adding the 7 to the Mixolydian allows you to blur through the scale and have the chord tones line up on the strong beats.







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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/20/2001 9:01 PM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

I said that it was a Dominant 8 note scale that the beboppers use to use not the bebop scale i was aware of that one.
Thanks PC.





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 8:57 PM

Stone Dragon (8501) wrote:

Could you point me in the direction of some specific resources that call this the "A dominant 8 note scale". Every source I've checked calls it "H/W Diminished Scale", "Symetrical Diminished Scale", "Octonic Scale" (now there's a new one for me), "Diminished Scale up a half step", "Diminished Scale from the b9", etc...


Debussy was using the scale before your bebop guys came on the scene. Debussy was pretty popular. Are you sure the bebop guys weren't just being trendy and ripping off his ideas?





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Re: What Mode is This Then?

8/17/2001 1:17 AM

Paul Cheeseman (2104) wrote:

and what a great scale to use over an altered chord.Try it out..ONE of my faves.

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