Five modes? I do believe you've been shortchanged.

-m

P.S. I won't answer this because I'm sure there are a lot of people here who can do a much better job than myself.

On the subject of Modes here's a brief summaryfrom a Wholenote/UniGTR+ lesson I did of those handy little greek fellas which might be of help to the first poster. These modes below are based on the Major Scale, but this modal approach can be applied to many different scales (even Anhemitonic ones hurrah! :)

1 > Ionian mode
2 > Dorian mode
3 > Phrygian mode
4 > Lydian mode
5 > Mixolydian mode
6 > Aeolien mode
7 > Locrian mode

Handy 2000 year old Greek huh? Not ;-)! And not an electric guitar in the house. Here's how I remember them...

I D P L M A L

I Don't Play Licks My Auntie Likes.

Ionian - Bright sounding and used in almost all types of music - also known as... the "Major Scale" (Doh - Reh - Me etc ...).

Dorian - Think Carlos Santana and you're halfway there.

Phrygian - A real Eastern vibe from this one - try Al Di Meola.

Lydian - This mode is kind of jazzy and used by the likes of the uncanny Jeff Berlin on Bass.
Mixolydian - Major-y sounding and often heard used quite effectively in Country and Blues music.

Aeolien - The basic minor scale - think Gary Moore blasting it out over him and Philo's classic toon Parisienne Walkways.

Locrian - a strange mysterious mood - famously utilized by the likes of Joe Satriani and Steve Vai.

Fair play 2 yez lads (and me poor oul Auntie) ... "d'ya wanna cuppa tea there Auntie while yer listening to this Dorian demo I done?" :).

On the thorny subject of scales n' things, here's a wee solo which sometimes uses the Pentatonic Minor scale which apparently doesn't exist :). Tonal Center Blues

Whoops, sorry and DOH! I meant to post my above post on page 3 of this modes thread ... it's a good thread and I got carried away an' .. an' ... sorry :).

Are you for real, or just short a couple modes !

If real?   Respond

If unreal?   Release

`B`

First of all there are seven different modes
If you were to build a major scale of C, the we would have these notes: C,D,E,F,G,A,B. This scale is also known as the Ionian mode.
In terms of whole-steps and half-steps between the notes we have,
--W---W---H---W---W---W---H
C---D---E---F---G---A---B---C

sorry bout the sucky notation.Just if u did'nt know interval between B-C and E-F are half steps the rest are whole steps.
after C we start the next octave of the scale.
An octave means the same notes only higher in pitch.
if we see the C major scale it has 7 different notes.if we were to use each successive note as the root fora new scale, due to the displacement of whole-steps and half-steps, we can construct six entirely new scales (or modes) with new interval structures.

(The 'X' indicates a blank space)
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
XXD E F G A B C D (dorian mode)
XXXXE F G A B C D E (phrygian mode)
XXXXXXF G A B C D E F (Lydian mode)
XXXXXXXXG A B C D E F G (Mixolydian mode)
XXXXXXXXXXA B C D E F G A (Aeolian mode)
XXXXXXXXXXXXB C D E F G A B (locrian mode)

If we check out the interval structure we would get the following info:

Ionian C D E F G A B C (major tonality)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (the intervals)

Dorian D E F G A B C (minor)
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phrygian E F G A B C D (minor)
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Lydian F G A B C D E (major)
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Mixolydian G A B C D E F (major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Aeolian A B C D E F G (minor)
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Locrian B C D E F G A (diminished)
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

Looks like you beat me to it while I was typing my reply to his message!

Later,
William GuitarShred.com

Dear Clint,
There is one problem in what you wrote. It has to do with the guitar shorthand system. You understand it and so do many others. However, there are a group of individuals who find the explanation confusing and here is why they find it so. You list the scale, and then the mode. The Dorian mode is an example. Placing a flat infront of a arabic numeral needs an explanation that in the guitar shorthand system, the flat symbol does not mean to actually flat the note, but to lower the pitch.

The confusion comes also from the tones that are used in the sequence as D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D and yet none of these are flatted by them selves. The lowering comes about in reference to the changing of the number of whole steps between one tone to the next.

The same confusion could exist within a penatonic scale by changing the interval distance between the sequence of the tones. C, D, E, G, A, C. Now start on A and we would have A, C, D, E, G, A. The distance has changed so under the shorthand system, we would have to use 1 the
A, ##2 the C,3 the D,b4 the E,#5 the G. The number of whole steps changed from 1(C to D) , 1(D to E), 1 1/2(E to G), 1(G to A). To 1 1/2 (A to C), 1 (C to D),1 (D to E), 1 1/2 (E to G).

One way would to place the explantion that the flat symbol means to lower a 1/2 step, not necessarily flat.

It is almost like using the color purple and aqua to change the color on street signals. Define what is meant. Communicate. Sematics.

Marriages and Nations have these problems. Not unique in our world. Basically if one system works for you and is understood by others. Use it. Ants communicate don't they. We don't understand what the ants are saying though.Charlie

Well, if he's talking about a 5 note scale like Minor Pentatonic then there are 5 modes...

My question is which scale are you talking about although I'm guessing that it's the Major Scale you're talking about?

Anyways, every scale has modes equal to the number of notes in the scale (not counting symmetrical scales like Whole Tone, Augmented, etc.).

The 7 modes of the Major Scale in order are:

Major (Ionian)
Dorian Minor
Phrygian Minor
Lydian Major
Mixolydian
Aeolian (Natural Minor)
Locrian Minor

The 5 modes of the Minor Pentatonic (Penta - meaning five and tonic comes from the word diatonic) scale are:

Minor Pentatonic
Major Pentatonic
Mode 3
Mode 4
Mode 5

The last three do NOT have names so they are just considered mode 3, mode 4, etc.

Anyways, let me know which scale it is and I'll go into detail about how it works, how the modes are derived, intervals, etc.

btw, I'll be posting a complete theory course on my site soon so you'll probably want to check for that in the future sometime... also (although I'm new here and haven't actually checked) there are probably some good lessons on modes here on WN.

Later,
William - GuitarShred.com

I would like to correct a BIG misnomer! To all of you out there who quote "minor
pentatonic".... THERE IS NO and I repeat NO SUCH THING! Please refrain from using this
misguided term. A minor (scale) is defined by lowering the third of a major scale and
a pentatonic does not have a third interval. Therefore, technically (by the theory
academia) is incorrect.

Thanks and sorry to burst many of your bubble.

-Reference Kostka, Materials and Techniques of Twentieth Century Music.

Theresa, I don't know about classical terminology, but as far as any Rock, Blues or Jazz theory is concerned, there is a minor pentatonic scale. The use of the scale and the term by millions of guitarists and publications in that area make the scale exist by convention, even if classical theory has no place for it.
The notes A C D E G constitute the A minor pentatonic scale and as you can see, there is a minor third (A-C).
Just as a minor scale has a relative major scale containing the same notes (or vice versa), the minor pentatonic has a relative major pentatonic, in my example, the C major pentatonic, consisting of C D E G A. Notice that here we have a major third (C-E).
And I never heard that a pentatonic scale has no third ...

Hi Stefan,

All theory is based and factualized by theoreticians. The third is in fact the third note
of a scale and not the second note. This is all academic, the point that Jazz musicians
and rock, pop guitarists and countless publications, magazines and articles publish
incorrectly, does not make a wrong a right. This is blatant misguided theory. A
notable reference should be consulted when in doubt. I cross referenced with Groves
and Kostka. I had this debate in my grad studies. (I made the mistake of arguing
there was a minor pentatonic to a staff of theory professors) and I will never make
that mistake again!

That's the thing one could argue about: A third is in my opinion not the third note of a scale, but an interval! And a minor pentatonic contains a minor third and a major pentatonic contains the major third.
Why are classically trained musicians always so adamantly asserting that no number of musicians using something and publications "do make a wrong right"?
If this was the case, we would have no development in music as every "new" idea would be seen as wrong, even if it catches on. Theory is there to explain music, not the other way round. If people use a minor pentatonic, theory has to change and accomodate the use. I'm starting to believe that there are several kinds of theory: classical theory and jazz/rock/blues theory and what is seen as incorrect from the classical point of view, might look differently from the other perspective.

About the third idea stefan, I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read the post about minor pentatonic not having a third. The "second" note of the scale is an interval of a "Minor third" so while I see Theresa's point I must agree with you. To take it further, we look at chords, are you saying theres no such thing as a minor chord, because its third note is not a minor third? (but rather in fact a fifth, as you well know.) This would go for, all chords I guess excepting maybe suspensions. or maybe im wrong.

Let me pipe in here a little.
Theresa when somebody says to me something about a minor pentatonic scale , I know exactly what they are talking about. It doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to you and all the classical theory gurus in the world. Myself and thousands of other guitarist know what it is by this name therefore . IT DOES EXIST
It exist therefore it is. Hows that for theory.
Just because some egghead professors put your argument down thoroughly do you now think that the whole guitar community is going to change their terminology and thinking because of that. I think not. This is a lost cause here so I would suggest giving it up. You seem a very knowledgable young lady, please share some of that on a POSITIVE vane and not on something as argumenative as "there is no minor pentatonic scale"
Chet(the not looking for a fight interested party)

Ok, this ol' country boy is probably going to fool around and get himself in trouble here, but I would like to offer my opinion.


I beleive that western music is in a constant state of evolution. This is how I see the chronology:

• 6th Century B.C. Pythagorus' mathematical relationship of perfect intervals and the intervals between.
  
• The appropriation of greek music by the church, the adaption of modes.
  
• The reduction of modes, creating major-minor concepts, spawning diatonic attribute (scales containing 5 wholetones and 2 semi-tones)
  
• Key concepts developed
  
• Complexity of individual instruments demanded a better tuning system, producing equal temperment, creating need for auxillary or ornamental tones.
  
• The chromatic scale is invented.
  
  
  As music has evolved, the theoretical concepts have also evolved. Sure, If you analyze anything close enough you will find something to substantiate what you want it to.
  
  
  To say that there is no such scale as a minor pentatonic based on previous explanations of how scales are considered, could have some basis for arguement. But then you would be telling a three generations of musical pioneers, that they have no concept of the music they themselves have created. And while I'm sure that a group of theoretical proffessors could argue us down to the ground about the whys and what to fors of our ignorance, in the end, while they are still analyzing it, we the musicians will still be creating it.
  
  
  Just my opinion - chris-

Heh heh. So friggin true. I really think it all boils down to the fact that classical musicians consider themselves a cut above everything else, while playing music someone else composed.

good answer Chris.
Chet

"I had this debate in my grad studies. (I made the mistake of arguing there was a minor pentatonic to a staff of theory professors) and I will never make that mistake again!"

This obviously had quite an impact on you. I'm curious what your arguments for the existence of minor pentatonic were and what arguments the staff of professors used to counter your own arguments. Or was it a simple matter of being told that you were wrong?

Think we'll get a transcript?

Make it right-academia? Art evolves-what is standard and accepted is "right". The term "minor pentatonic" is real and using the nomenclenture of "minor" is accepted throughout the planet by "real musicians", I would suggest that academia is "wrong" or at least very narrow minded and even "high-falluten" :-)).

I think - Perhaps one might just look at the word "minor" as being used in a different context in the use of "minor pentatonic".
We are after all speaking English.
Beside we all "play" music. Do working musicians play music too?

Materials and Techniques of 20th century music??? LOL. I've written one of these myself, it is substantially more complete. Here's is the full text:

"Sound, silence, everything in between."

I haven't read Kostka's book but that appalling title makes me laugh, really.

I'm curious, does Kostka's book include amplifier feedback (cf. James Marshal Hendrix) or humor? (Cf. Erik Satie's scored indications for the pianist to run around the piano. Or Fats Waller's tempo indication for "The joint is jumpin'" --> Tempo Disturbo da Neighbors).

Does Kostka's book include the Jipang Karaton of Bali, or the forms indigenious to the applachian mountains (sacred harp, etc. etc. etc.) or DJ scratching, or John Fahey's uses of his old 78s in the Molly Requia? Is sampling and waveform manipulation in there as the perhaps most important technique to emerge from the 20th century -- because to me looking forward it appears it may become so?

Does this 20th century Kostka has apparantly theorized for you include anything other than the music officially sanctioned by the scholars of the Western acadmey? These guys still haven't given up on Schoenberg and the 12 tone row. Despite the fact that a teeensy number of people find it anything more than an intellectual pastime. Schoenberg is still considered by these fellas an "IMPORTANT" composer. Ya can't get your music ph.D. without facing down the dissertation committee and answering a lot of questions about Schoenberg and Alban Berg, when in fact neither of them are by an objective standard much more than musical curiousities.
The acadameicians aren't more learned, they're just in a world of their own. A world where no true sound can escape their deadening pontifications. (In general, some of these guys and gals actually have a clue and can laugh at the whole silly mess... those are the ones that tend to be able to write something worth listening too, not coincidentally).

The Atomic bomb over Hiroshima was loud and had deep emotional impact. It was extradordinarily communicative. It's one of the worst pieces of music ever played IMO. Ditto for the hissing of the gas from the shower heads at Dachau. The 20th century is bigger than Kostka's book, I assure you, and so is music.

Minor thirds? Golly Theresa, what are we using that utterly outmoded means of describing music for anyway. Sheeesh. This HAS GOT TO STOP. PLEASE STOP USING THIS LUDICROUS MISGUIDED TERMINOLGY. Let's talk only set theory!

[The following is plagarized from an online source:]
---->Interval. The distance between two pitches. In set theory intervals are measured by the number of semitones. Thus, CE is not
a major third (M3) but 4 semitones, or simply 4. A minor sixth would be 8.

Interval class (ic). The distance between two pitch classes, measured by the shortest distance. C to G may be the interval of
7, but its interval class is 5. Thus, the largest ic is the tritone (6).

Index number. The transposition number, in semitones, above a reference pc. P5 would be a transposition up 5 semitones
from P0.

Modulo 12 (mod12). An arithmetic system nearly identical to that of a clock, where 13=1, 14=2 etc. However, in modulo 12
the number 12=0. If we want to know what 2 hours past 11 is (11+2), we say it is one o'clock (1). Thus, in mod12, 11+2=1,
and there is no number greater than 11.

Normal form or normal order. A cyclic permutation of a pc set arranged in ascending order as compactly as possible with
respect to the first pc. Each pc is represented by a pitch number in the absolute-do system. The normal order of an F major
chord would be 590.]

OHHHH damn.... I just spent 10 years studying set theory and how to figure out forte primes and solomon primes and then my finger slipped on a string and both bent and vibratoed a note and it's upset all my calculations!

Oh an about that non existent pentatonic minor third. I mean, we're in a standard tempered tuning, right... 12 root of 2 and all that right (although I've refiled some of the upper frets on my guitar to sharpen them a few cents... they used to make a guitar that did this for you, but there wasn't enough market demand)... at any rate so many of these intervals are so mathematically imperfect I'm not sure what to call them. To talk only about things that exist, really exist, maybe we should just exchange .gifs of waveforms.

I can sling this BS with the "best" of them. Funny tho, it doesn't make me a better guitar player/musician. Actually thinking and listening has helped enormously, tho.

An obnoxious post? Yeah. Deliberately so. You're attitude bugged me.

Doug.

But at least it's about MUSIC!! Keep dem posts a'comin'!!!

Tracy the music-starved

CB<----serves tracy an eighth note melody sandwich with triplets on the side . lol

MMM mmmm good!!!! Thanks, CB!!

*LOL*

Hey Doug
All I can say is "Woah DUDE" hahaha. Your my hero.
Really Doug great post answered I think in the same spirit as the offending post and educational for guys like me who don't have the schooling in music some of you do.
Chet

Thanks Chester --

But don't be impressed... it (my post) is 95% bluff. I _can't_ sling this BS with the best of 'em. Not even close. They can pile it over my head.

Dante forgot to mention one layer of hell. It's where the music poseurs go... the damned wade in a sea of molten ear wax while a deafening soundtrack of Stockhausen plays overhead. Bat-winged Devils holding pitchforks (_pitch_ forks) flutter above the sinners tormenting anyone who dares to stop babbling about how "Music, you see, is a process... this is a valid process..."

Please don't let me end up there. Gulp.

Doug.

It is said...ignorance is bliss...and these
postings have become way to much minutia
and fodder for any one person to even begin to
respond to. When a person denies himself
exploration, then he is but dead to himself and
the world. Most of the rebuttals have been
clouded with opinions, conjectures and half
truths without regard to substantiating their
arguments. Ignorance is indeed a poor
excuse in our country and I feel for it's future.
To perpetuate this is the biggest ignorance of
all. Doug, you do a big dis-service when you
post messages that only circumvent
explanation away from the original statement.
(10 yrs on set theory? Come on...) Armchair
theorists shouldn't self promote. If anyone is
going to post, then by God they should at least
know what they are REALLY talking about
instead of what they may or may not have read
or THOUGHT to know.

It's not a question of ignorance.
You're accusing Doug (it seems) of "denying himself exploration".
I'd have said it's your professors who did that. (Doug was merely getting a little over-emotional, hehe - music can do that to a guy, y'know!)

"Pentatonic" simply means "5-note".
A C D E G are 5 notes.
Based on a A as the tonic, this scale is definitely minor in sound and function (the tonic chord has a "minor third" interval - or would you call the chord A-C-E something other than "A minor" if used on that scale?).
Blues music, and (therefore) most of rock uses the scale in just this way.
Yes, you can say, that strictly speaking (speaking so strictly it's of very little help), that C is the second note of the scale, therefore it can't be a "minor" (minor third) scale.
So call it an "augmented 2nd pentatonic" if you like! (A rose by any other name...)
Or say it is a "natural minor scale with two notes omitted" (which is a little more like the way it is used, although it's still a bit wordy, and doesn't allow for the fact that blues and some other ethnic musics use such a scale without any need to think of two other "missing" notes).

Theory exists to explain sounds - no more. The sounds come first. (Even in classical music.)

I agree that we should all be precise and clear with our terminology, so as to avoid misunderstanding - but how does the term "minor pentatonic" promote misunderstanding? (except among college professors?)

We (rock and jazz players) all understand it perfectly. It's a clear and useful concept.

How (do you think) would your professors categorise the ACDEG scale (and please don't say C major pentatonic, because that is plain wrong).

I'm genuinely interested! :-)

JonR

Ok, lets not get nasty here. Everyone turn to the person next to you and say "I love you and even if I dont understand or agree with you, you are still a good person" :-)

Thanks Chris (I was about to get really nasty... weeeee hoooo an old fashioned online peeing contest -- what a waste of time! Thanks for the reality check).

Theresa, at core, we agree... perpetuating ignorance is not a good thing. I honestly don't think I've done that and I'm curious to know where you think I have. Sorry if you took me literally about 10 years on set theory. Just an example (exaggerated for effect) of how one can study all sorts of bizarre arcana in an attempt to codify the uncodifiable.

If you think my earlier diatribe was about how you were wrong and the minor pentatonic _really_ contains a minor third. Um, no, you misread me. I was reacting to the use of caps-lock and a citation-of-surces to explain that if you count up from the root of a pentatonic what we're calling a minor third isn't actually the third note. It's the second. Call me touchy, but getting yelled at to count to two and having a book thrust in my face which contains the secrets of counting to two, well, it got on my nerves.

Jon beat me to the right answer (he always does that :-)! ) but I'm going to repeat it. (I always does that :-( )

Okay. There's a very good reason for calling it a minor third -- it implies we are overlaying a diatonic scale over the pentatonic for ease of reference.

As Jon pointed out -- what are we supposed to call that interval. An augmented second? This could only make sense if we were creating music in a purely pentatonic environment.

But we're playing music based in western harmonic/chromatic concepts and borrowing the pentatonic for the flavor -- we're harmonizing the pentatonic with chords drawn from diatonic concepts.

We need to call the C to Dflat interval a minor third in order to retain a consistent vocabulary relative to the music we are _actually_ playing, which is based in diatonic harmonic conepts.

When I play a blues tune am I supposed to look down at my fingers and go hmmm... here's a C7 -- er I mean a C aug2+5 chord. That's helpful? That's 'correct'?

Doug "state of bliss" McMullen

Well, if we call C to Dflat a minor third we've _really got problems_ heh. Ahem. Eflat.

Doug.

Two more thoughts: All Mario wanted was a clear straightforward explanation of modes.

But here's the killer: Theresa tried to tell a room full of music professors that there _is_ a minor pentatonic and got shot down.... but,then she turned around and tried to tell a room full of guitarists that there is no such thing as minor pentatonic.

Theresa you should just turn us loose on the music professors... they're meaner, but there's more of us. I call it a fair fight.

Doug.

:-)

We're sure to be louder, too.
But I guess Theresa now has enough people in her face telling here politely - and not so politely - that she's wrong. Let's cool down a bit.

Ah, Doug, applause! Bravo! Author, author!

- From a former academician who barely escaped with his soul.

Who gets to decide when people "really know what their talking about?" No one seems to think you do!

I personally think you're all talking a bunch of hogwash. In PRACTICAL music all sorts of things are possible, and there are different ways of communicating these ideas. If you converse in the classical or scholastic idiom, then you are going to speak a different language than some one in the pop music, or jazz music realm. The ideas are the same, the language is different.

If you can only speak English, don't cruise over to Spain and tell them their all talking wrong!!! I believe your type is the one that "denies himself exploration" by fighting so hard for a standardized musical vocabulary. You need to expand your own vision, or keep your opinions to yourself. The true genius in this on-line world we call Wholenote is the one that can communicate and share information and ideas. By telling someone their playing a scale that doesn't exist, and then insisting we never use the term around here again, your not sharing, or even constructively criticizing, you're trying to force your language upon us, you're speaking English to Spaniards. We know what you're trying to say, but we don't appreciate the fact that you can't speak our language.

Oh, and by the way, the scale in question does exist. I'm sure even you have a way to refer to a scale that has five notes including a tonic, a minor third, a perfect fourth and fifth, and a minor seventh. If so, then syntax and vocabulary are indeed what is in question, and my previous points apply.

If you think somehow that the scale itself truly has no place in music, then you're simply wrong. This scale is used immeasurably in modern pop music, and to tell a beginning guitarist that it doesn't exist is a genuine travesty!

Theresa
Again let me say, I can see by your accomplishments that you are a very intelligent well educated person and my statement was not meant to belittle or condemn but in your own words "When a person denies himself
exploration, then he is but dead to himself and
the world." we are not the ones with the "closed" opinion here. You come on and decry terminology that is widely accepted (correct or incorrect matters not) and refuse to accept what has become the standard because of something that was written long ago about a different way of playing and learning guitar. Who is dening himself (or herself) exploration here. Your accomplishments and credits are very impressive and blow me away and I hope to hear and learn much from you but this isn't the way.
Chet (the redneck from the sticks with the High school diploma)

WoW, you have a highschool diploma? Where did you get it? Can anyone get one? How much does one cost? Think they would let me just borrow one?

Chris,
I got my High School diploma by beating the crap out of a skinny little geeky teenager down the street and taking his but hey I gots one now so how doesn't matter.
Chet

dont have any of those skinny geeks around here.... there is a 7 year old girl down the street, when I see her she is in for a butt kicking and a half

What, exactly, were you expecting - that this entire group of ill-bred "folk" musicians would kowtow to your obviously "superior" education without raising the slightest fuss?

Aren't we being just a bit pretentious?

It seems to me that for all your concern for the future, you are merely parroting what you "may or may not have read or THOUGHT to know".

In my response to your original posts, I provided you with the means to further explain your position. Instead you counter with a "rebuttal, clouded with opinions, conjectures and half truths without regard to substantiating your arguments".

Hey!! I resemble that remark. I am illbred, wait.......maybe thats inbred,...hold on I'll ask my brotherdaddy.



-Chris- Master of dueling banjos'

Everything is arranged so that it be this way, this is what is called culture.

Schoenberg is an important composer. But then, so is John Lennon.

My background is in classical music, but I'll take Lennon over Schoenberg anyday.

It is hard to compare because they were doing different things. I think they both are interssting but lack an all round universal quality as composers. Sort of the extreme of both the classical and pop worlds with perhaps both at opposite ends of the musical spectrum. The best is always somewhere in between... Maybe George Gershwin. IMO

I think Gershwin used the minor pentatonic. :-)

I agree with Wilfred.

I think Gershwin was a fantastic composer, but his talent was best suited to short works - songs, basically, like Lennon. I love the Rapsody and all that stuff, but those pieces never seemed to be more than the sum of their parts.

Schoenberg gives me something very different. The music of him and his pupils is not music I always want to hear, but it has its place. I went to see Berg's Wozzeck the other day - that style of music can be incredibly powerful & emotionally unsettling. Not light entertainment, but very human, expressive music.

Incidentally, did you know Schoenberg and Gershwin were very good friends? They used to play tennis together. I always liked what Schoenberg said about Gershwin when he died (I paraphrase):

'Was Gershwin a "serious" composer? Well, if a "serious" composer has to have absolutly no sense of fun or humour in their music, then no. In every other way, he was surely a composer of the highest rank.'

Also, check out Schoenberg's tuneful Cabaret songs. The guy liked the pop music of his time - he wasn't all Germanic seriousness. He just often chose to write difficult music, to reflect his difficult times and turbulent life. I appreciate his truth & honesty. I don't appreciate the music professors who put words in his mouth after his death.

Next week: why Vaughan Williams was a jazz fan...

Who knew, that such a simple post would create such a large (pointless?) argument!

Theresa, apparently the professors you talked to stopped studying theory upon learning the Diatonic system... that's unfortunate for them because they will never be able to understand popular music.

Anyways, I'm not interested in this argument as it's pointless and I doubt anyone here will change the other's opinion. I'll state that it does exist and explain why, then you'll explain that it doesn't and why and we'll have accomplished nothing except wasted time! I'm just going to state that I disagree with you (without explaining why) and leave it at that...

P.S. had this been face to face I would have loved to argue with you all day but it just takes to long to explain stuff by typing, LOL!

Later,
William - GuitarShred.com

Perhaps it would be necessary now to try to invent places for teaching and research outside the university institutions.