Question... Steve Cropper played 6ths alot. I'm on this shed mission to improve my 6ths and 3rd double stops on the top four strings. When you play passages like this, how do you select where to START in on a series consisting of say, Maj. and minor 6ths, or Major and minor 3rds. ? For example... here's some. The key is 'A' and these all work using progressions from the mixolydian mode, or 5th note in the 'A' Major scale, 'E'.... ;

So vamping over an A 7th-

*As it is, this case, 'E' : First, 3rds:

Strings 1&2

0....2....4....5....7....9.....10....12
2....3....5....7....9....10...12.....14

OR Strings 2&3

0....2....3....5....7....9.....10....12..........
1....2....4....6....7....9.....11....13......
----------------------------
............................5 E
[I'd start in w/ the m3:...6 Db

Then, if running 6th's in 'E' Mixolydian, it looks like this:

Strings 1&3):

0....2....4....5....7....9.....10....12
..............................................
1....2....4....6....7....9.....11....13

OR Strings 2&4

................................................
2....3....5....7....9....10....12....14.
................................................
2....4....6....7....9....11.....12...14

Here, I'd start in w/ the m3...5 E
...................................
..............................6.Db

------------------------------------------------
Again- That's sort of complex, I know (mixolydian), but if the Key was say, 'E' and you just wanted to run these in the relative minor (aeolian mode), C#/Db... where would you kick in, re; the examples above? Thanks. Marc

Hey Mark - I don't approach this in a theorectical fashion but look at the key that I am playing in. Example would be a simple I-IV-V in the key of A maj and lets make all of the chords in the I-IV-V progression Dom7's, hence A7-D7-E7. What I look for as a starting are two places in the key of A:

1) Where the note A begins. I build my 6ths and 3rds from here knowing that I am in the key of A. I then use the A major scale with the appropriate respective 3rd of the of the diatonic harmony and construct from there.

2) Where the note E (5th note in the key of A) begins. Same thing applies as above but I usually decend the thirds or 6ths with the 5th of the scale.

I can do others as well but these are my basic building blocks for playing first and third/6ths (when inverted) notes when I play these types of double-stops.

I hope that helps.

Thanks Randy- Yes, your answer does help- however, I think we're speaking the same language- whenever "modes" get brought up, unless the guy you're conversing with also has them "under the fingers", it starts total corn-fusion.

You mentioned playing either 3rds or sixths up or down the neck diatonically in the sequence of the A Major scale ("ionian mode"). Then, responding to my question, you mentioned also playing the V and simply playing the Major Scale (ionian) sequence, starting from the an 'E' note in the dyad/double stop. Technically that IS playing the mixolydian mode sequence.

Now again, let's say we're on the I ['A', in this [I-IV-V]...The E mixolydian sequence (or for that matter, phrases out of an E Major scale alone...-same thing, sounds great in A.] My observation is that, say we're talking running a 3rds sequence on the first and second strings... it would go as follows;

From nut to bridge:

*........**
m3-Maj3-Maj3-m3-m3-MAJ3-m3-m3


Clearly, that initial m3 * consists of an open E string (or of course, string 1, fret 12)and 2nd string, 2nd fret (C#/Db). Even though the actual m3 is going from C#/Db to E, mentally-physically, you eyeball the 'E' note (1st string) and begin playing THERE, INSTEAD OF, say, starting with the Maj3 (**E to G#/Ab...string 2, fret 5 & string 1, fret 4). This Maj3 forces you to attack the sequence, thinking first about where the 'E' is on the second string...less fun, since we're all accustomed to, diving at roots on the 6th, 5th and 1st string). See where I'm going here? Admittedly, 'E' is an easy example, because of the open E and 12 fret E...

For the hell of it, playing 3rds on the 2nd and 3rd string presents the same bitch...

From nut to bridge,

-----------*-------**--------
m3-MAJ3-m3-m3-Maj3-Maj3-m3-m3

Using the same logic w/ THIS string pair forces you to spot and nail the 'E' note *m3 (string 2, fret 5 & string 3, fret 6). Worse, the other or next double stop you COULD use as a starting reference forces you to spot and nail the 'E' note *Maj3 (string 2, fret 9 & string 3, fret 9). I-don't-THINK-so, ha ha...

Sorry to "milk" this whole thing...as you know, the exact same logic for these 3rd sequences played in "E Mixolydian", applies to the min and Maj 6th sequences played out on both the 1st and 3rd as well as 2nd and 4th string pairs.

After writing this turd up, I think I've accidentally managed to answer my own question... if you want to play 3rd and 6th sequnces of any kind (mode), SPECIFICALLY the 2nd and 3rd string pair 3rds and the 2nd and 4th string 6th's you HAVE to get insta-under-the-fingers comfy/familiar with notes on string 2, "the B string". DUH. (Slaps own head...).

I sure hope this helped you or anyone else...have to admit, in a curiously mentally masochistic way, the process helped me... Thanks for reading and sorry if anyone out there would like to smack me upside the head for this stuff. Marc

"Then, responding to my question, you mentioned also playing the V and simply playing the Major Scale (ionian) sequence, starting from the an 'E' note in the dyad/double stop. Technically that IS playing the mixolydian mode sequence."

IMO you are trying to overthink this which may be part of the confusion. If you start on the 5th tone E and play a scale or 3rds or 6ths in the key of A, it is still an A major scale. If we were playing over the V chord with E as the tonal center, then yes you would be playing in the key of A but the Mixolydian mode.

Songs can be modal and if it is say A Mixolydian for example, your key signature will be two sharps since A Mixo is the fifth of D. However in A Mixo, your I - IV - V chord structure is different. Diatonically it is I (A7) - IV (Dmaj7) - v (Emin7). We tend to sub IV and V with V7 chords thereby changing the harmonic structure.

For communication purposes, keep it simple otherwise it becomes really confusing when it comes to Double Stops. To give you more food for thought, try Double Stops in 4ths. If you were to follow standard scale patterns, all fourths will not be perfect if properly harmonize from the diatonic scale. However when you play the double stop in 4ths, it remains perfect for all notes from 1 through 8.

Appreciate your patience Randy- I realize that this thread is in the "theory" section and rightfully, you're responding to my question as though I'm asking about theory...I'm clear on the theory my man- It's just that from an APPLIED standpoint, my whole inquiry is- basically, "What's the easist way to start into playing 3rds (on the 2nd and 3rd string) and 6ths (on the 2nd and 4th strings)? I was (foolishly) attempting to find a way not to have to get all 2nd string notes under my fingers -and now realize, I'll HAVE to if I want to play those double stops on those string pairs (same with 3rd's on the 2nd and 3rd string). I would have had this exchange with someone in the INSTRUCTION thread (I'm new to WholeNote -I THINK that's what it's called), but no one responded. I appreciate your clarity on the THEORY issue- I'm already OK with that. Fact is, typing is so _______g limited compared to simply talking face to face, or sitting across from someone, both guitars in hand. But what do I want, MEAT in my soup?! Ha ha. Thanks again man. Marc

P.S. Classic example... In this opening exchange, we were saying the exact same things AT each other...ha ha.
---------------------------------------
You quoting me:

"Then, responding to my question, you mentioned also playing the V and simply playing the Major Scale (ionian) sequence, starting from the an 'E' note in the dyad/double stop. Technically that IS playing the mixolydian mode sequence."

You commenting on the quote:

IMO you are trying to overthink this which may be part of the confusion. If you start on the 5th tone E and play a scale or 3rds or 6ths in the key of A, it is still an A major scale. If we were playing over the V chord with E as the tonal center, then yes you would be playing in the key of A but the Mixolydian mode.

...Guess that's why WholeNote is free to users, and lessons cost $$$ :-)

...Guess that's why WholeNote is free to users, and lessons cost $$$ :-)

That and a great exchange of thoughts and ideas.

Ahhhhhhhhh!!!! Ha ha Check it out man- it was here ALL ALONG in the lessons section under Blues...it's the first thing that pops up:

Lesson #8621 - Page 2: Double Stop Shop Part 3

Live and learn! :--) Marc

Tons of lessons out there Marc. It is just that everyone has a different approach to the same end result.

No problem Marc. Just wanted to throw this out at you anyway. If you throw theory out, it can become more confusing as you can start to introduce chord subs in its place.

ie:

Here I play the double-stop G containing the 1st(G) and 3rd(B).

G

Here I am playing the double-stop to G9 which is the 5(D) and the 7th(F) of the chord.

G9

Both double-stops can be played over the G chord, but in your approach, the 1st example would be starting on the Ionian and the second example starting at the the ii(D) Dorian in the key of C. Note that the G chord is the V chord in the key of C.

This is where confusion can beginning.

In regards to what is the easiest to answer your bottom line question, start on the root of the chord to be safe all the time and build from there.

Right OWN Randy! The intersection between your dialogue and mine was simple: You're sticking with 3rd's double stops on 1st and 2nd strings and 6th double-stops on 1st and 3rd strings. It's understandably quick and easy to spot the root note on the 1st string in particular, and of course, they sound great! I love playing them there, as well as the 3rds and 6th "sequences" (minor and major, same key) played out on the 2nd and 3rd string pair (for 3rds) and 2nd and 4th string pair for sixths. Conclusion: It's just a little more work / practice to get various keys "under the fingers" if you want to add the latter two string pairs. It's all about choice! Marc

You are absolutely correct about choices Marc. You can even take double stops further by adding more to your traditional scale. Some examples are sliding from: a half-step down, a half-step up, whole step up, whole step down. You can also move in m3 over a dominent chord to give added drama. Play the I-ii-iii chords over the base chord ie: A - play A-Bm-Cm using double stops. You can go ascending or decending. As mentioned before, it theorize it all, you take away from the musicality. If you look at my example and remove the Diad concepts, you just are working with modal scale harmonization.

Reread this post again Marc. Just as a note that I do play play 3rds and 6ths. My diagram was information only regarding roots based off of the 1st string for 6ths examples.

Howdy Y'all,

Don't know if this helps, but when I first started incorporating double-stop 6ths in my playing, I used to just associate these little movements with either a major, minor, or dominant chord by finding their roots, 3rd, 5ths, or 7ths on the 1st string. For example, for A major:

A major (root)

A major (3rd)

Then I'd string them together with the diatonic 6th based double stop between them to outline the sound of the chord, like this:



Here is A minor:



I also learned to use chromatic movement to link them. Here is one for A7:



So yeah...the point being you find these little ways to outline different simple chord sounds (using the 1st string as a visual guide) and then just experiment and use your ear for phrasing. They work great when playing with another guitarist...one guy banging out the chords and the other doing 6ths based licks to outline those chords.

good luck, keep pickin!

Rob

I have been lurking a bit... would like to improve my knowledge and application of doublestops.

Thanks for posting this Randy.

No problem bro!

"An' ah Hailp'd!" (Kentucky Fried Chicken ad from the '60's). Ack ack ack ack.

Randy, I read both your recent posts. We're "on the same page", esp. re; choices, slides, etc. Thanks for being the only guy to step up. Marc

1 last milk! FWIW... I've found a simple way to jump around between string sets, w/out having to think about starting notes beyond those on the first string!

3rds

m3rd on 1st and 2nd string? To play the exact same two note m3 on the 2nd and 3rd string, simply jump up the neck, putting "two frets inbetween." Just quickly eyeball it. Easy.

Major3rd on 1st and 2nd string? To play the exact same two note Maj3rd on the 2nd and 3rd string, simply jump up the neck, putting "three frets inbetween." Just quickly eyeball it. Easy.

6ths

m6th on 1st and 3rd string? To play the exact same two note m6th on the 2nd and 4th strings, simply jump up the neck, putting "3 frets inbetween." Just quickly eyeball it. Easy.

Major6th on 1st and 3rd string? To play the exact same two note Major6th interval on the 2nd and 4th strings, simply jump up the neck, putting "3 frets inbetween." Just quickly eyeball it. Easy.

Clearly, once you've jumped to another set of strings, the whole sequence remains the same, only the fingerings to accomplish the intended double stop change.

Also- The student can now show a little initiative by figuring out various other combinations, shifting string pairs-

m3 to m6 or Maj6,
Maj3 to m6 or Maj6

m6 to m3 or Maj3
Maj6 to m3 or Maj3

Like you said, 1/2 and full step slides, etc.