Share This Thread What the hell is this scale? Michael Laurance (2261) Theory Forum 9/16/2009 5:25:16 PM · 53 Views [Respond to this Message] I'm home sick today, just lying here with a guitar. I've just put together this great melody with a fantastic chord progression, but have no idea what theory land I've wandered into. If you're into Porcupine Tree/Pink Floyd, you'll understand my musical thinking here. It's basically F# G A B C Db. I'm experimenting on whether any of those work best as minors, 7ths, maj7ths, etc. What works well in the verse is Db sus2, with a progression of B, Cm, and the Db sus2. Now here's where it gets weirder, as if it could- I planted this run in the end of the verse of a high Em, Gm, and Bbmin (Sliding from the 7th to 13th frets). It shouldn't work at all, but it sounds great. This is one of those cases where we tend to throw the rules aside in order to create art. However, I should probably figure out what the f*** to solo in! LOL Hmmmmmm. Help, anyone?

Responses  [ Pages: 1 · 2 ]

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/16/2009 8:22:14 PM Chris Pinto (22326) wrote: This is one of those cases where we tend to throw the rules aside in order to create art. Heck, I thought that was Jazz! Then again, I never understood jazz...LOL Chris

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/16/2009 8:23:07 PM Chris Pinto (22326) wrote: Man, I guess I suck at HTML too! LOL Chris

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/16/2009 10:35:35 PM Chris Bond II (1808) wrote: That looks Eastern, and I do mean Eastern. Look up the term Melakarta. (I think I spelled it right, Eastern music is as far from my bag as you can get)

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 8:12:52 AM Cinda Private (4808) wrote: I don't have a guitar or keyboard in front of me. Did I see this right? Are you using both a B and a Bbm? That has a hint of being some sort of melodic scale which is usually slightly different ascending vs. decending. This could be looked at a couple different ways. The B could be the Tonic or the 1. In jazz you can frequently slide a chord shape up and down a half step in order to create movement. Which is why the slide to the Bb works for you. Just some early thoughts.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 10:22:11 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: They are both acsending, but at different ends of their respective progressions. The first progression is B Cm C#sus2 (Dbsus2). The 2nd progression is the Em Gm Bm. It also shouldn't work to have 3 minors in a row, but it does. However, I will experiment with some 7ths in there to see if it either breaks it up, makes it sound more musical, or just plain makes more sense.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 10:47:58 AM Chris Bond II (1808) wrote: Some food for thought for you: Not only are there three minors in a row, they are 3rds apart, with the distance of E to G a minor third: what does that tell you?

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 11:02:51 AM Cinda Private (4808) wrote: This is the part where I usually say "Okay... I think I have enough to work on for a while... I'll see you next year for another spot lesson!"

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 11:41:08 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: Diminished chords repeat at minor third intervals. The chord names and pitch names may change but the function is still the same.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 12:51:28 PM Cinda Private (4808) wrote: I've played a diminished scale once... and only know one diminished chord shape. I'm sure they're musical... I've just always used the 7b5 instead... or are they the same thing?

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 11:00:07 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: Functionally Yes. Theoretically No. Full diminished chords have a lot of tension because of the tritone. The tritone interval (A4 or D5) want to resolve. Cinda - take your diminished 7 chord and play it with the root on the 2nd fret. Move the chord with the same shape up a minor 3rd. Same chord shape, same chord function, similar tonality, pitch names different (usually enharmonic). Dom7b5 don't have the min 3rd like the Diminished 7th's do but both of them contain the tritone interval (Dim 5th or Aug 4th). Dom7b5 chords contain the following pitches - 1 b3 b5 b7. The function of the Dom7b5 is just a V7 chord with an altered 5th. The fifth in this case is the flat 5 which has a tritone relationship with the root and another tritone is present between pitches the 3 and flat 7. Imagine a chord with two tritones – lots of tension. C7b5 chord – C E Gb Bb Please note that my short discussion pertains to fully diminished 7 chords. Half diminished chords function normally as an “ii” (m7b5) chord in a minor key. Fully diminished are used to modulate to a new key while V chords or can be used as a passing between two adjacent key related chords. Fully diminished are usually noted as vii chords Dim7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7 Diminished chords contain the following pitches - 1 b3 b5 bb7. Like the dom7 chord, notice the tritone is between the root and the b5 and a second tritone is also present between b3 and bb7. Once again two tritones with a lot of tension. The major difference between a Dom7b5 (contains Maj 3rd) and the dim7 (contains min 3rd) chords besides the function are the distance from the root to the 3rd. Cdim7 chord – C Eb Gb Bbb I hope that helps some.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 3:47:53 PM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: Helps some? Are you kidding? If you could post something like that once a week, I'd be your biggest fan! We'll call it "Randy's Corner" or something like that. I like the way you break things down and diagram them like that. Thank you, brother Randy.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 4:56:12 PM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: Thanks Mike. Jon Riley is better at it than me. He usually takes care of these type of things. If I were to spill out all that I know, the book would be about 50 pages. I view scales and concepts to a simple form of: What can I use it for? How long will it take me to learn? And can I make it musical? We get caught up into too much of the hoopla of this and that. I remember when Joe Satriani first hit the major scene. He would talk about all of these different scales. It was way to much info for me to just play my guitar. Pure TMI!!!

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 3:04:02 PM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: It tells me that I need to learn more theory!

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 10:39:22 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: I looked it up, and wow- I'm really intrigued now. Not many guys in hard rock/blues rock are using scales like that unless you're Vai or George Harrison. I'm going to dive into it hard. I think Indian melodies are so dark and haunting. They're repetitive, and they stick in your head. This is going to sound silly, and it started this way for me. If you go on YouTube, and look up "Nipple Song" you'll get this whole raft of Indian songs interpreted in english in a hilarious manner. It's a good laugh. But, listen to the music, it's kick a**! Most people woudn't think so, but we're musicians, we're quirky by nature. The big question is, aren't there quarter-steps in eastern music?

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 10:46:04 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: I looked up specific scales that pertain to guitar, and they list it in a way I'm not familiar with: Arohanam: S R1 G1 M1 P D2 N3 S Avarohanam: S N3 D2 P M1 G1 R1 S What do these letter/number combo's mean? Like if this were an F# scale for instance, what would the notes be?

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 11:00:08 AM Chris Bond II (1808) wrote: Ah, you have to remember that their alphabet and terminology is completely different. For example, they have no such thing as an F# So knowing this, I then had to go look up the terminology because I sure as hell didn't know it off hand. This is what they call some of thier note/pitches- shuddha rishabham, shuddha gandharam, shuddha madhyamam, chathusruthi dhaivatham, kakali nishadham Notice the first letters of each name is written in scale form in your post? Also the number represents pitch. For example a rishabham1 must be lower or higher than a rishabham2 And people wonder why more of us don't study Eastern music lol

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 11:04:10 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: I'm still trying to work that all out in my head. It's (literally) a different language to me. I'll try to do some groundwork, and bring it back to you all. If I sit and figure out some of these songs by ear, I can map it out, and between all of us on here, maybe we can come up with a translation.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 11:33:49 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: That's funny Chris! I analyzed the scale yesterday and found that I couldn't classify it under any Western Music format. However I am not into scales from other cultures very much as the Western Music in general already keeps me busy.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/17/2009 10:24:51 PM Chris Bond II (1808) wrote: Trust me, most of what I know about Eastern music (and it ain't much) is by accident. I teach in Detroit where the Eastern Population is the most concentrated in the west. On slow day chewin the fat you know, Eastern Music comes up with customers alot. I do teach Eastern kids, but they want to know Crazy Train like any other teen. But sometimes you know when the feeling is right ans I'm bored as ten kinds of hell, I look a little bit of stuff up and try some different melody...

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 8:51:04 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: I work at a high school here in suburban Chicago, and we have a teacher from India. She's going to burn me a couple cd's. Being a cross between a blues guy and a metalhead, I never in a million years thought I'd be seeking out Indian music! But, I feel the need to grow as a musician.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 10:07:13 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: That's cool CB! I am originally from Hawaii and that is where I did most of my teaching. Back then it was Metallica's "One" and "Ride the Lightning" along with "Crazy Train". But non the less all western music. Even after moving to LA nothing has changed much in regards to my neighborhood influence except I became more aware of the blues. It's not Chicago or the Deep South but the West Coast influence.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 11:34:27 PM Chris Pinto (22326) wrote: LOL! I remember teaching "Fight Fire With Fire" to some of my students...LOL Man, my hands got a workout on those days! LOL Chris

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/18/2009 11:38:31 PM Chris Pinto (22326) wrote: Yo Randy man! This is FREAKIN' AWESOME! Check this out: Absolutely insane version of "Fight Fire With Fire"!!!! OH MY GOD! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epSMyGjVsmE Chris

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/19/2009 6:37:08 AM Warren Hunt (2013) wrote: Brother Chris, That was not what I was expecting. Its mad. Like it.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/19/2009 11:43:11 PM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: I dug it because that is different. You are right - it freakin' awesome! Go Brother Pinto - Yo!!!!

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/21/2009 1:45:10 PM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: Amazing how we always come back around to Metallica and Ozzy! LOL We start with eastern music and end up at Fight Fire With Fire. Never did figure out the intro to that song...

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/21/2009 4:09:15 PM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: That's funny Mike! "But these go to 11"

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/22/2009 9:53:49 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: Do they say that in India? They surely have Marshalls in India too!

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/22/2009 10:10:39 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: You mean - Ma shawls? How 'bout - Boo geese? Fen da? LOL - Couldn't help it.....

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/22/2009 1:58:06 PM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: But I'll bet Budda amps are popular... (Going to hell for that one...)

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/22/2009 4:41:46 PM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: I have only heard one or two responses about that amp - both were good. It's just another boutique Bassman clone. Give me Dumble or better yet a Trainwreck - RIP Ken Fischer

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/23/2009 9:50:16 AM Michael Laurance (2261) wrote: Yeah, I'll just use my good ol' silverface Bassman 50 head. I love that amp.

• Respond to this Re: What the hell is this scale? 9/23/2009 10:37:11 AM Randy Hano (6661) wrote: Nice Michael, Nice!!! Nice and meaty sounding. Very thick when run through 4 x 10's or 12's.

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