That is sad!

I know a lot of lower end things don't get the nice setups and such, but at $700 an instrument should have !!!!!!

I bought one of the Gibson faded flying V's a few years ago, and while it needed a little personal tweaking (as do all guitars), it was still beautiful right out of the box. So, they can make a $700 guitar in the USA that plays like a dream, but a $700 guitar made in China needs $100 worth of tech work.

Sorry, Michael. I totally agree.

It seems to me that Gibson's quality control on their Standards, Classics, and even Customs has fallen way off the mark. I've played several over the last few months with sharp frets, binding issues, finish flaws, and wacky electronics.

Now, that just makes me wonder, if they are getting that lax on their workhorse models (to say nothing of the customshop, VOS, reissue, signature models, etc. ($$$$$$$$)) why should they even begin to care about their offshoot, inexpensive (ya right) brand?

I have sworn Gibson off for quite sometime now, at least buying a new one, and things like your complaint are the exact reason for it.

Carl

I hate to say it...but Gibson is junk anyway. Not to flame anyone, but I just see to many of them that;

1, Don't play well/wide inconsistincy
2, Have defects (new out of the box)
3, Lack tone and feel of older models

Now, if you're willing to pay 15K for a custom shop model, then you will get a "true Gibson".

Anything made in general production is no better than anything else out there, that many times can be be had for 1/4 the price.

Gibson trades on it's name, not its product.

My advice to anyone is buyer beware. Give some of the other models, a good workout and serious consideration.

Don't buy gibson just because it's cool to have a Gibby and some other dude thinks it's great. When your milking the tones out of a great instrument you got for a hell of a lot cheaper, no one is going to check the make of your guitar.

Besides, I've never in my life heard a chick say "Oh wow, and he plays a Gibson" it really is a dude thing. Keep it in mind.

I agree with you CB. It took along time for me to buy an LP and I finally did two years ago. I bought a Studio LP Plus. Right off the wall the guitar played well and sounded well. Took it home and it sounded even better through my rig.

Now for those of you wanting a Gibson, I tried for 5-6 years to find the right Gibson, trying each one out. I would walk away from each one just because of the playablilty and workmanship sucked.

Even a used '80 Black Custom for $800.00 that I tried, didn't care for - it did not play well. Guitar choices are subjective, you gotta play them. After all you are paying more for a hunk of wood with strings and electronics on it be it a brand name, but brand name or not, the guitar has to fit and sound well. There is no reason to buy a piece of crap that is only good for the fireplace.

Hey Chris,

We were talking about Samick earlier in the post...

If memory serves me correctly, didn't they have an EXACT PRS Copy???....Man, they really looked sweet! And some friends in the industry said they were really nice guitars! Fit & Finish was nice, good playability, decent tone...etc

Totally didn't realize that they were still making guitars! Haven't seen their name around in a while....

Chris

Totally didn't realize that they were still making guitars!


This will blow you away then...Samick is the largest guitar maker in the world; today at least. It changes back and forth between Cort and themselves.

Cances are, anything made overseas (Japan Excluded) was amde by Samick or Cort.

But i have two Samicks, a fast back and a JZ4 Jazz Box. Real nice workhorses!

Gibby vs Epi is always a hot button topic, and I'm not trying to flame anyone.

However, it seems rather illocigal -- and even more improbable -- that any company could or would exercise better quality control over their budget line subsidiary guitars -- made a half a world away in China -- than it would over its premier line of products that are made in its home country -- and in some cases -- in the same building as houses its executives.

Moreover, if Gibsons are "junk", it seems unlikely that so many multi-gazillionaire rock stars would choose Gibbies. After all, they can afford to play any guitar in the world. It's hard to buy the notion that (Fill-In-The-Blank) is going to choose a "junk" guitar.

It's okay not to like Gibsons, and Epiphone makes very fine instruments nowadays. Epi offer a much more sensible alternative for many of us because Gibsons are often radically overpriced. However, Gibsons are most definitely not "junk" and are -- by the manufacturer's very design/intent -- superior to Epiphones.

Paul,

I'm not saying you are wrong about the relative quality of Gibsons and Epiphones (I don't see anyone here saying that Epiphone is better quality overall than Gibson), but I can see some possible reasons why a rich rock star would play a Gibson even if the quality of the current production line models is somewhat less than it used to be in the past.

Certainly, if they have enough money, they could afford a custom shop model. Gibson may even provide a free model to a star that would give them exposure and sell guitars (but I don't know for certain that Gibson does that). Either way, Gibson would make certain that the star got a good one. I have often heard that the "signature" models provided to the star they are built for and the ones we see in the store are very different in quality.

They also may be playing older vintage models that they either have had all along or have purchased. If you had to have a Gibson and had enough money, I am sure you could get a good one, even if you had to pay someone to put it into shape.

I personally have never cared for either Gibson or Epiphone, so I can't speak to the current quality of either.

-Dale

Hi there.. I don't know how many of you guys are speaking from
experience but i have owned both old and new gibsons. i had a
1960 335 from brand new (showing my age here).. played that
every day in the studio on the road etc. etc., that guitar went
everywhere cross australia.. never let me down, was a dream to
play and sounded superb.. unfortunately for me i had to send it
to the shop for some serious repairs in 1983.. a full overhaul
and to get the neck reset and refretted.. the guy trashed the
guitar repairing it... set the neck at the wrong angle wrong fret
wire an all round f*** up!. i got rid of it for nothing and this was
my only guitar which had been with me for a long time. as i was
a session player working all day every day in the studio i went
with what the producers were after and went and bought 1 x
maple neck and 1 x rosewood fungerboard custom strats from a
local maker.. i played both these guitars up until around 1994
and then decided it was time to get another 335 at the
generosity
of my girlfriend.. i went out and bought a new 335 straight off
the wall.. 95 model ..i still have this guitar and absolutely love it
to death.. it is better in every way than the old one.. ( a bit
heavier) and sounds fantastic.. my old one was a sunburst
model and the new one is flame maple.. just looks gorgeous.. i
had heard that around here that the new guitars aren't as good
as the older ones and blah, blah, blah.. what a load of rubbish
my new guitar kills the old one.. and every new guitar needs to
be set up out of the box as you all know each and everone of us
wants something different from our guitars.. i never worry about
how it comes from the maker just take it straight to my repairer
( i have a great guy now) and let him have his way with my
guitars..and you're all correct. it doesn't matter what we are
playing as long as it is set up just the way u like it and you love
it.. a name is just a name.. but the only thing that i am
convinced after all my years as a player "nothing sounds like a
gibson" "if you want a gibson sound then you have to get a
gibson" and the guys here that play them know what i mean..
they might be a bit rough around the edges but with a couple of
hundred bucks you get em just how you like em.. i just love
mine and this year she's 13 and i could not live without her..
other companys make semi acoustic guitars styled on the 335
and in my opinion i haven't played one that feels or sounds like
a 335.. turn up a gibson 335 and you feel the thing resonating
through your gut.. love it!!! i have recently played some of the
new gibsons as i have been looking for a new acoustic and
played some of the new model 335's and they are basically the
same as mine only younger.. and you got to admit that it takes a
little while to start squeezing the tone from a new guitar.. you
got to get to know it!!
and lastly i don't think it matters a bit what u play as long as you
get the sound you want and you like the way it feels.. when
purchasing a new guitar don't listen to anyone but yourself.. just
go out and paly everything until you find the one that gives you
the woody..lol... close your eyes and listen to the tone... and
that comes from your fingers anyhow..
peace :-))))))

Hi Paul,

Very true. I have played many Gibson's, and you're right. A Gibson, is the real deal. Back in the late 70's/early 80's, my friend had a gorgeous 1974 Gibson SG custom, and it was simply awesome!

The Epi's are decent, but they're not Gibson's.

Then again, I have played some nice Epiphones, too.

PS: Have you ever played one of the Ibanez versions of the "335"? My friend loves his....Very nice tone, even though it's not a Gibson

Chris

Yep.. i had the one that schofield plays and it has a sound all it's
own and was a wonderful guitar but not the sound i was after! it
lasted about 5 months or so in my collection...and i've owned
epiphone casinos both single coil and humbucker models and
they we're great also. but none of them sound like a gibson
335!! and if that's he sound you're after that's the guitar you
have to have.. just like if you want a carvin you buy a carvin..
each guitar is individual and has it's own tone..i'm not saying
that the attention to finishing is perfect but that doesn't matter
to me..i have it to play not to put on the stand to look at!! i am
and always will be a 335 fanatic.. for me they r the ducks
nutz..no other semi acoustic does it for me and i have played so
many made by luthiers and custom shop models.. there is
something that i just can't get out of any other semi acoustic..
they have their own thing happening....
but each to their own as bondy said.. g'day
chris..long time matey!
and who the f*** am i, i'm just passing on my personal
preference. i will play my 335 until it's time to hang her up.
nothing else even comes close.. a lifetime love affair...

peace. :-))))))))

The Ibanez GB models play well and sound great. As for the Epi, the Joe Pass models that I have tried plays very well!

It's just all subjective. You like what you like, and that's that.

My personal choice is Carvin, which I feel are superior to Gibson in every way and trust me, I can buy any guitar I want.


The real difference in Gibson and "lesser" makers is that they hold their value because of their reputation and disireability.

Smoke and mirrors in my opinion. But we don't all hear the same things.

One thing I do agree with is that you would probably sound great no matter what you are playing,

Rock on

Peace out.

Are you using their amps, too? I went in there on a trip to San Diego, and I thought the Legacy was a bit on the noisy side.

Nah, I'm a fender twin kinda guy. Being country at heart, I actually prefer a silver face over a black face.

That said, I use a Roland microcube as a practice amp.

It is an ironic thing.These companies look for new revenue streams but seem to dilute thier product.

No one wants Gibson drums, a Carvin amp or a Taylor electric guitar. Ovation proved that back in the 80's with their attempt at electric guitars. Man what s--- bomb that was.

Just like mu ol' Uncle Charlie says,- Dance with the one that brought ya

Post Script - Fender being the exception of having sound gear as respected as thier instruments.

I agree about the silverfaces, I have a '69 Bassman 50 head. Love it. I have a video (the Weber one) on converting them to blackface circuitry, so if you ever decide that a '66 BF would sound better, it's possible to do.

That being said, I have heard the tweed 2x12 Carvin amp, and was very impressed.

I like the blackface sound - it's a lot warmer. The silverface has much more twang.

I believe that's the variable vs. fixed bias right there, but I could be wrong.

The Fender 'silverface' amps just didn't sound as good as the 'blackface' era for 6 basic reasons:

1) The rectifier tube was changed from a 5AR4/GZ34 to a 5U4. There are a lot of people, myself
included that think the GZ34 is more efficient, has less tube sag (voltage drop), and better sounding... however, because it was so much more expensive to make there were not as many made, and a NOS GZ34 Mullard, for instance, may run you anywhere from $80 and $150 ea. The Chinese and the Russian Co. Sovtek make 'copies' but, fall a little short.... JJ is working on one, and should be out by the end of 2001.

2) Most of the SF Fender amps had small value caps on the power tubes which grounded out high
end harmonics and made the amp cold sounding. Those should be cut out of the circuit.

3) The output tube BIAS control was a BIAS adjust in the BF amps and a BIAS balance in the SF
amps - making it impossible to have a correctly biased pair of tubes on the output thus sounding a bit
thinner (not as full).

4) Smaller plate load resistors were used on the phase inverter stage (the small 'driver' tube just
before the output tubes), and this caused a decrease in gain, dynamic response, and sustain.

5) The BF amps utilized a 'fixed BIAS' whereas the SF amps had, sometimes, a combination of fixed
and cathode bias circuits... there is no way to make these sound right except to change it back to a
fixed BIAS circuit.

6) The resistors in the power supply filter cap section were changed so the B+ voltage was dropped in
the SF amps... it's easy enough to change these to boost the voltage to drive the amp correctly.
The main problem an old amp has is that the electrolytic caps, in both the power supply filter
section, and the cathode bypass (preamp tubes) caps are pretty much dried up, and it's just a matter
of time before they (literally) smoke...

Taken from: http://www.unclespot.com/SF2BF.html

Wow, I'm actually going to copy and paste this info. I bought the book and video by Weber, the kind of odd southern dude. He seems to really know his stuff, and shows it very well in both the book and video. But, more information is always helpful!

The Weber book is awesome. Do you have "The Tube Book" by Aspen Pittman? It is another great book! What I love about Weber is that you can buy his transformers which are custom wound to meet the Blackface specs IIRC.

No, I don't have the Pittman book, I'll have to find that one!

Great book! Full of schematics as well. Another good one to find is a reprint of the RCA tube book. From what I read, Leo Fender used this book as his bible when he started building his amps. The '57 Bassman is supposed to be based on some of the circuitry along with many others listed in that book. I also believe that the other main difference was at that time, Leo had many military surplus outfits to get parts from so his world was a giant porpourri. Also lets not forget the that much of the early built transformers had paper/oil bobbins vs. the modern style plastic. I understand that a few companies still make the old style along with a hybrid. And finally, the purity of the copper in the transformers. Today much of the XFMR contain alloy's and are not as pure (copper).

Hi Randy.

I think in your case, you're right. If you ask 100 players, 90 would say the blackface is superior

The problem is, 10 of those guys would country players and would probably throw thier master volume control knobs at you lol.


Why country player prefer silverface twins -

Headroom - At 135 watts these amps will shake the inside of your brain, and never distort or saturate much. Yes, who wants that nasty tube saturation?

No other amp has the cutting power on clear tones. When you're competing with violins, pianos steel guitars etc. You want your tone to come through.

Durable. These things are absolute workhorses.

Quiet. If you have a good guitar. The silverface never makes a sound when you're laying out.

:)

Totally agree CB. The silverface is stable amp and crystal clear and clean. Sometimes a little to brittle for me.

CB, what do think of Matchless or Ken Fischer's Trainwreck (RIP)?

I have a SF Bassman 50 head, and it sounds great. I'm not a country player, more of a dirty blues/southern rock/Jerry Cantrell kind of guy, but I love the amp. The only problem is that it won't take a newer amp modeller well. I've used it with my Pod, and it blows the fuse every time. So, I'm putting together a vintage rig to use at home, and for the right jam session- all stuff I won't gig with anymore. It'll be the SF, my old chrome Morley wah, MXR distorion+, my old Pearl chorus, and my original Ibanez delay. It should be a pretty nice rig. I just picked up and empty 70's Peavey 4x12 cab- the ones that are the size of a refrigerator- and I'll fill it with either Jensens or maybe Webers. It should be a tasty combination. Can't wait to plug my '64 Gibson Melody Maker into it!

I somewhat remember that you were the one that was having problems with your pod and amp. Did you ever get you amp looked at?

As for silverface's, they have a nice clean sound. You gotta crank it for it to breakup. From what I remember, that was one of the design upgrades besides making the power amp section more stable.

If you run effects, you can really putz with them in order to get that distinct sound that makes the silverface popular.

No, I never had the amp looked at for one somple reason- I can't find a good amp tech out here in the NW 'burbs of Chicago. So, I bought the Weber DVD on amp repair ($70), the accompanying book on amp circuits ($35), a multimeter, and I'm going to learn how to do it myself! Wish me luck.

Rules
1) Be Careful and Safe!
2) Look for ground loops
3) Be Careful and Safe!
4) Look for bad capacitors. Leaky electrolytics are big suspects.
5) Be Careful and Safe!
6) Measure your voltage with one hand (right). Attach one of the leads to ground so only one hand is necessary.
7) Be Careful and Safe!

You're so right, I've heard that a tube discharge can change your whole life- or end it.

Actually it is the Capacitor's that hold the charge.

To discharge a cap, you are going to need to make a discharging shunt.

1) Take an alligator lead wire and cut it in half.

2) Solder a 10K resistor between the cut wires to create the discharging shunt.

3) Heat shrink the exposed wires and resistor.

4) Make sure power is not connected to the amp.

5) Attach one of the alligator clips to chassis ground.

6) Attach the other alligator clip to an insulated screw driver.

6) Holding the screw driver in your right hand, contact the positive lead of the capacitor for approx. 3-5 seconds. The cap should be discharged.

Some old timer etron tech's may just tell you that you don't need the shunt resistor. Ask them if their name is "Sparky" and check to see how many fingers they can hold up - LOL.

The life you save might be yours...

Actually, thank you, sincerely. I saw Weber do something like that in his video, but he does the entire chassis as whole somehow. I'll try your method first, it sounds safer.

I had a Bassman 50 head once. I guess it was a silverface. All I can remember is that I could crank it up full and get a serious dark, growling distortion in the bass range. It was great for metal rhythm. I couldn't get anything in the treble ranges though. When I tried to play leads, everything was still perfectly clean.

-Dale

I bet that was deafining! It was probably speaker distortion as the cone was on the verge of its threshold for breakup.

Yeah, that had to be frickin' loud!

Yeah, I guess it could just have been the crappy speakers distorting, LOL!

And yes, it was loud! The neighbors didn't like it much!

I didn't have it long, I ended up trading it for something else, I don't remember what. I don't remember much about those days for some reason, hehe!

-Dale

"I don't remember what. I don't remember much about those days for some reason, hehe!"



.....druggie!

LOL


Chris

I do remember one day having a cop show up at the door when I and my drummer friend were making some noise (we may have called it "music", hehe). He started to tell us about when he used to play, and we invited him to sit in with us. Unfortunately, he declined (or it would be a funnier story), but we could tell he really wanted to. He stayed and talked with us for a while and we kept bugging him and he said, "No, I'd get in trouble." Still, I think of how funny it would have been if another cop had showed up and caught the first one jamming with us!

-Dale

If I had a dollar for every time the cops showed up to a garage practice...

Let's go for the outdoor parties! We were safe in the garage.

That would have been awesome! Now did you ask him to come back on off-hours? That would have been better!!!

We did, but he didn't show.

-Dale

That's a drag! I guess he really didn't want to either play or get busted in the off hours. If he did show, that really would have been totally cool.

Kind of reminds of Chong playing his guitar I believe in "Up in Smoke".

And yeah crappy speakers. If you had good ones, the sound would have still been clean. On another note, Celesian 25 and 30 watters and great for getting that beautiful speaker overdrive. However you may have had those crappy "Eminence's".

Except that Chong probably sounded better!

I think the speaker cab was a Custom (or was it Kustom?). I think someone paid me to haul it off.

-Dale

Nice! Who was your Cheech yelling at ya????

LOL!

As per Chris Bond....

ANOTHER CARVIN LOVER, RIGHT HERE!!!! hehe

My new Custom DC400A....BEST GUITAR I have ever played! PERIOD!

Chris

Carvin, if you're listening, PLEASE make the California Single in a 24 fret version!!!

Hey Mike,

If you want, go over to www.carvinbbs.com

That's their message board page. You can talk directly to the administrators, and get an answer. They may actually build one for you, if you call with a credit card "in hand". Sometimes they do stuff like that, but you gotta be ready to order.

"hint, hint"

Every now & then, they stray off the norm, and they "might" do such a thing for you...IF it's not too much trouble for them......

....unless you already spoke to them....in which case, forget this post! haha :)

Chris

We need another great Chris Pinto topic to set the keyboards a blaze again!!!

OK, check the newest post, buddy!

Chris

Nice one bro!!!

Hi Chris

My name's Ron Pinto. I live in London. I am not much of an English man but I try to manage my way thru. I play a bit of bass guitar, lead guitar...and still want to keep learning.I heard a lot about you and at the outset would like to know your roots (if you dont mind), before starting with the root/dominant 7th/sub-dominant/supertonic 7th/submediant substance...just a joke.
Send a line in reply, if possible. Look forward to communicating with you. All the best.

I do have to admit, though, that my 1957 Gibson acoustic was sweet. I wish I still had that one.

-Dale

Sorry, I should have said that both Epiphone and Gibsons are junk

Sure, "rockstars" play them. But truth is, most rockstars are first, more popular than talented or acomplished, and next rarely play general production models.

You will have to break down for me how Kerry King (or whatever his name is) playing a Gibson means anything. Will you sound like him if you play his sig model? I sure hope not, it would probably be detrimental to your own playing.

Just my opinion.

Most of us have owned "junk" guitars. Gibsons and Epis are a far cry from that level.

No major corporation like Gibson can stay perched at the top of the industry ladder by producing "junk," however the word is defined.

Pointing out one player that one deems as not talented (another very subjective call) who plays a Gibson - even if he isn't talented - isn't persuasive either. One example doesn't prove a rule.

It's okay not to like Gibbies or Epis, but labeling them as "junk" is hyperbole.

I'm not trying to offend, really. I have just seen too many new Gibbs that have to be sent straight back to the factory because of defects.

Also, working in a music store I get to see and play many different things. Some good, some not so good.

IMHO, the Gibby's fall into the not so good category.

For instance, I can show you a Samick Fastback. It has a quilted maple top, Nice hard maple neck and come ready to go straight out of the box. My dealer cost is about 185.00. It will rival anything Gibson makes in 1k range.

In fact, that's how we sell them.

We let people play the studio LP's and SG's and then say, here, this one I can sell you for 250.00 and hand them the Samick.

It doesn't take most people long to make up their mind.

The exception to the rule is the guy who walks in already mind made up that he wants a Gibson (because you know they're the best) and is not interested in even trying the Samick. He pays his thousand bucks and leave, and we roll our eyes,

What I tell you is the total truth.

I have a friend who has a kid who is looking at guitars - I will mention the Samick to them!!

Any other nice models in the Samick line that compare to that one??

Yeah, Samick makes several nice models, but the fastback is the real jewel. Can be had online for about 200.00 in some cases. Worth every single dime.

If you're looking to upgrade a little from the fastback, I would suggest the Michael Kelly Patriot model. Set neck, flamed maple rosewood fingerboard that plays like butter and sounds like violin.

They're a little pricier at 399.00, but try a 2000.00 LP standard or a PRS against it, I think you'll be shocked.

I have heard a lot of good things on the Michael Kelly guitars and mandolins.

They have a Les Paul-ish guitar wieh a similar set neck, don't remember the model. Great guitar. One of my students has one, and I'm quite impressed with it.

Hi Chris,

Agreed....There are some Gibby's that are good...no doubt...

But, I too have seen my share of some bad models...I used to work in a music store, as well, and I've seen many models that were awesome, without the Gib' name.

My friend recently purchased a couple of the Tokai Love Rock "Les Paul Models", and man, they are SWEET! He got the mid 80's models...Holy crap, the tone & resonance is spectacular...They both rival his old PRS!

Hell, my new Carvin rivals my old PRS! Come to think of it, that new Carvin rivals ALL my guitars! LOL

Chris

I am waiting for my new Carvin as well Chris!!! LOL

LOL!!! ha ha ha

Should be arriving at your door any day now! :)

Chris

What's the shipping number and who is the carrier?

Is the carrier - FED MEX?

Yeah, I shipped the guitar to you today!

Uh, I found these 2 guys with some beat-up van in the Home Depot parking lot. So, I gave them $200 bucks, to deliver the guitar to you....And I assumed that included the insurance?

Funny, they took my money,and the guitar but I haven't heard from them since...And I thought it was strange that they didn't ask for your address?

I asked them what the tracking number was, but I didn't quite hear them, because they drove away too fast, and they rolled up the window as they were driving away.

I'll try and get the tracking number for you, as soon as I find out their names.

Chris

I hope you saw the license plates numbers so I can run an APB.

Did the van have all kinds of smoke exiting as the doors opened?

yeah, i don't really think all gibby's suck lol. I just ain't real happy wit them right now. There's something about a nice 335 or 175 that just gives you the fuzzies. But you're right. I have two Carvins, and i wouldn't change them for anything.

hehe, I know what you meant.. LOL

I do agree tho....I've seen some real nice Gib's, but, I've also seen some junk, too. Right out of the case....Frets unfinished, frets sticking out past the fretboard, paint blemishes...etc

Shame, some folks spend a bunch of money on a Les Paul, 335, or some other model Gibson, only to have it need repair before they can actually enjoy it. That's not cool, at all.

I mean, sure, it happens to many brands, but, if I'm paying $2000 - $3000 for a guitar, this shouldn't be.

Chris