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scales for jazz
Steve Ebisuzaki
(405)
Theory Forum
10/23/2008 1:17:37 AM · 85 Views
[Respond to this Message]
When I here George Benson,Earl Klugh and the like their runs are so fluid.Where do they find these notes? Are they coming from scale modes if so which ones? I am just starting to fool with some of them but its slow going.
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 8:05:48 AM
Ken Richardson
(6286) wrote:
Those guys are great!
What you are hearing did not come to them overnight - it took years of practice & playing.
I am not an expert on jazz, but I enjoy Earl's and George's music. There are books out there on jazz, and probably some jazz lessons here on Wholenote.
In addition to the scales, players can use chord tones - much like Chuck Berry did.
Do a search on some lessons on the Wholenote. |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 11:31:34 AM
Chris Bond II
(1808) wrote:
Just getting into jazz, I wouldn't worry about improvising scales too much.
It goes without saying ( but I'm gonna anyway)that the very first step is to start listening to it a lot.
Then just start learning a few songs. There are transcriptions and books all over the place to some of the greatest works. Examples include Honeysuckle Rose by Charlie Christian, Billie's Bounce by Charlie Parker (arranged for guitar) All Things you are by Joe Pass and the list goes on and on.
If I had to suggest a single learning resource, it would have to be Emily Remler's Star Licks instructional video. Just 32 when she died in 1990, she was not just a great player, but a true teacher. There are very few of those, I assure you. Spewing information does not make a good teacher. Taking tried and true ideology and presenting it in a way that the student grasps the importance and practicle application does.
Telling you that jazz players use Dorian or BopDom scales is not really going to help you if you don't know what they're suppossed to sound like when you apply them. |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 2:19:49 PM
Michael Laurance
(2261) wrote:
What I would like to learn are some of the styles played in fusion bands, particularly Jean-Luc Ponty's band. Some of those guitar lines were just amazing. Does anybody know what scales were often used there? |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 5:49:55 PM
Adrian Dupree
(6318) wrote:
I would say melodic minor is used too. I'm no jazz expert though.
Adrian |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 5:52:49 PM
Randy Hano
(6656) wrote:
Much of what they played are our diatonic modes. However unlike rock the focus would be on Dorian, Lydian and Mixolydian modes. This is especially true when playing inside or within the diatonic key. There is a difference in jazz in that the diatonic keys can change ever so quickly.
Benson is a great example. Depending on what era Benson you are playing would determine where he would likely be playing. Benson played more diatonic in his Columbia days (inside) and outside in his earlier CTI days.
Write out the modes for melodic minor and harmonize them as well to establish chord type and scale type.
Common melodic minor modes played are: Lydian b7 (1,2,3,#4,5,6,b7) and The Altered Scale (1,b2,#2,3,b5,#5b,b7) over Dominant chords. |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 6:06:47 PM
Robert Strait
(6459) wrote:
Jazz, IMO, starts with the blues. My advice is to start
there...learn basic 12 bar blues and then all its harmonic
permutations. You really need to experience some of the history
and the musical lineage.
Jazz players use all kinds of scales...the same 12 notes we all
have available to us. It really comes down to vocabulary, which
comes from listening to lots of jazz music.
IMO, the single most important ingredient in jazz playing is that
no matter what you play, even if it is one note, it HAS to swing!
Playing with a swing feeling can be obvious or subtle, but all
jazz IMO (even in latin jazz where eighth notes are played
"evenly") swings in some sense...there is always some rhythmic
and/or dynamic element to the phrasing that makes the notes
groove!
good luck and keep pickin,
Rob |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/23/2008 6:16:53 PM
Robert Strait
(6459) wrote:
I guess you did ask specifically about scales, so...
Some common things you will find in jazz:
Often they play diatonic 7 note scales with an additional,
strategically placed chromatic passing tone to create an 8 note
scale which creates a phrasing where chord tones land on the
beat. A common example of this is referred to as the "bebop
scale", which is simply a mixolydian scale with an added natural
7th passing tone:
also, very commonly in jazz, different scales are "superimposed"
over the V chord to create a hightened sense of tension.
Different modes of the melodic minor scale are commonly used.
Probably the most common is the 7th mode which you get when
you play a melodic minor scale starting a half step above the
root of a dom7 chord (i.e. over G7 play an Ab melodic minor
scale):
There ya go...that should keep you busy for a decade or two... |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/24/2008 4:59:17 AM
Steve Ebisuzaki
(405) wrote:
Thanks for the info , this will keep me busy for awhile.Also if the modes are the same notes from the parent key but from a different starting point.If you have a collection of notes from that key how do you tell the difference? |
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Re: scales for jazz
10/24/2008 12:42:21 PM
Jon Riley
(9692) wrote:
Looks like the old MODES topic is rearing its ugly head again... :-)
The short answer to your question is: you don't.
Forget this idea of applying different diatonic modes in a key-based chord sequence. You're right it's all the same 7 notes. It's the chords that make the difference (by invoking different tonal centres, tho only in passing) - and they do that automatically, as long as you use the right 7 notes (in any configuration).
To maybe repeat advice you've already had:
Important JAZZ SCALES consist of the following:
MAJOR SCALE. (Including natural minor and other modes: some of these ARE worth considering in their own right, but I'll come back to that.)
MELODIC MINOR. (Some modes of melodic minor are useful, tho mostly not in the minor key they come from. Again, more below.)
DIMINISHED. Two modes: whole-half (used on dim7 chords) and half-whole (used on 7b9 chords).
WHOLETONE. Used on 7b5, 7#5, 9b5, 9#5.
HARMONIC MINOR. Not used much at all in conventional jazz, but worth knowing.
You should know major and harmonic and melodic minor in all 12 keys. There are only 3 diminished scales (each of which can have 8 roots) and 2 wholetone ones (each of which can have 6 roots).
The famous BEBOP scales mentioned above are mostly major scale modes with an extra note added to make 8th note runs work better. (The principle is more important than learning the scales themselves.)
FUNCTIONAL HARMONY or MODAL HARMONY?
This is an important distinction to draw in jazz.
Functional harmony (FH) is the way all jazz and popular music was written up until the late 1950s. Also all classical music.
It's also the way most pop music, and a lot of jazz and rock, is still written.
FH is distinguished by being in a major or minor key - perhaps with modulations to other keys - and having chord "progressions", which move in more or less predictable ways through a diatonic set of chords (all harmonised from the same scale).
The emphasis is on telling a kind of story through the use of dissonance to represent conflict, ending in resolution to a tonic. It can contain intense changes of mood within a single piece.
Modal harmony was first used by Miles Davis in 1959 (seminal album Kind of Blue) - inspired partly by African music and partly by pianist Bill Evans' study of Debussy - and has formed part of most modern jazz since then.
A lot of rock is best interpreted in modal terms, even tho few rock musicians know the concept theoretically. It's down to the origins of rock in both blues (which can be seen in its primitive form as modal music) and celtic folk music (often modal in nature).
Most music cultures around the world (and European music up to the Renaissance) are modal in nature. (Indian raga is a classic example.)
MH is distinguished by static harmony. Typically a single chord, or (in other cultures) a bass pedal or drone. Very little chord movement, and what chords there are are almost random collections of notes from the scale. The emphasis is on a single mood, and the music can be either meditative or (with repetitive rhythms) can establish a hypnotic groove good for dancing.
(NB: medieval modal music, such as Gregorian chant, has rather different rules, but we're talking about the concept as applied to jazz.)
It's possible to take any chord out of a FH tune and play with it on its own as a MH tonality. But within FH tunes, the modal identity of a chord is subsumed in the progression. Each chord has a job to do (that's what "functional" means ;-)).
IMPROVISATION
In jazz - in both forms of music (which are often combined in the same tune anyway) - the central idea is "INSIDE" versus "OUTSIDE".
"Inside" means the 7 notes diatonic to the key (or mode). "Outside" means the other 5 notes.
All 12 notes can be used at any time, as long as it's understood how they relate to the context.
Chromatic notes can often assist chord functions in FH music (particularly on dom7 chords).
There are 3 functional groups in FH music:
TONIC = I, vi, iii
DOMINANT = V, vii
SUBDOMINANT = IV, ii
A tonic major chord can take one alteration: a raised 4th, making a lydian chord (maj7#11). This doesn't upset the overall major (Ionian) tonality, because the other chords in a sequence all point to this one as "home".
A dominant chord (V7) can take many alterations, as its function is tension.(see below)
A subdominant chord takes no alterations. It has a more subtle intermediate function, and any alterations will upset this.
IOW, although one begins with the 7-note diatonic scale, there are frequent opportunities for going beyond that. On any chord (even subdom chords), we can use chromatic "approach" notes (a half-step either side of chord tones) as long as they resolve to the nearest chord tone.
Modal substitution (with the exception of lydian on tonic chords) is inappropriate and irrelevant in this kind of music.
(Although any triad chord can - in isolation - take 3 different modes, only one is correct given the context of the chord: its role in a progression.)
DOMINANT 7TH CHORDS
In FH jazz, the dom7 chord is a playground for all kinds of alteration, to enhance its function (of driving towards the following chord).
This where two common modes of melodic minor come in.
On a V7 chord, the 7th mode of melodic minor may be used. (Eg on E7, you'd use F melodic minor). This is known as the "altered" or "superlocrian" scale. It contains the root, 3rd and 7th of E7, plus b5, #5, b9 and #9
The other related mode is the 4th, known as "lydian dominant". This is used typically on tritone subs for V7 chords.
Eg, in key of A minor, you might see (or use) a Bb7 chord in place of E7, to move to Am. Bb7 also takes F melodic minor, but the Bb root makes it Bb "lydian dominant". It's the same as mixolydian but with a raised 4th. (The chords are usually written as "7#11".)
As mentioned, the HW dim and wholetone scale may be used on other kinds of altered dom7s.
IMPROVISATION IN MODAL MUSIC
Harmonically, as explained, modal music is much more limited than FH music. It focuses on a single chord-scale.
As such, the scale prescription is even tighter than in FH music.
Eg, Miles Davis's "So What" is a dorian mode exercise. Its Dm7 chord could take aeolian or phrygian modes. But to use those would be ignoring the whole point of playing that tune in the first place. (Miles himself does use the odd C#, and one passing Bb. Modal music admits some flexibility; but not modal substitution.)
Most modal jazz tunes will use several chords, but probably not linked by a single scale. Each chord has its own group of notes. But each one is specified and not (or only very rarely) open to being changed.
But the same concept of "inside/outside" applies. In modal music, it can be simpler to apply, because you don't have differing chord functions to worry about - you might have a long period on one chord (and get bored ;-)). All you need to do to play "outside" in a modal tune is play a scale a half-step above or below the right one.
You would only do this for short phrases, returning to the mode pretty quickly. (And many modal players wouldn't do it at all.)
(You can do this in FH music too, but you rarely get chords lasting long enough to make it worthwhile.)
With both FH and MH music, the first skill is to IDENTIFY the scales used in the piece - by looking at the melody and chord sequence - and then use those scales as the basis for improvisation. That job is challenging enough without thinking about some contentions and irrelevant concept like mode application or mode substitution! Expression doesn't come through scale choice. The composer already made that choice. Your expression comes through how you use the raw material provided.
The above may all sound a little dry and prescriptive!
Improvisation is - above all - melodic. You have to construct melodic, singable phrases. A good strong melodic phrase can over-ride harmonic contingency - if it sounds good you can sometimes ignore how it fits the chord; the ear will forgive unresolved dissonance if it hears a great hook line.
Expression, rhythm, dynamics, timing, and tricks like repetition all play crucial parts too.
It's always helpful (IMO) to remember the BLUES. Blues feeling (and its technique of note-bending and vocalisation) is the soul of jazz. Many great soloists will play a couple of perfectly "harmonically correct" phrases, and follow them with a blues cliche, perhaps to lighten the mood. So if you come to jazz from the blues, that's an excellent foundation. You need to learn how to negotiate all these different key centres (often in the same tune!) but you need to keep that expressive "accent" of blues. |
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Re: scales for jazz
12/1/2008 7:05:54 AM
Jon Riley
(9692) wrote:
Not sure if I understand "modal interchange" the same way you do.. ;-)
I was thinking of (eg) taking an Am7 chord in key of C, and using A phrygian or A dorian over it, instead of the correct A aeolian (C major scale). Phrygian and dorian add a wrong note, that only serves to disrupt the chord function, and contributes nothing useful.
The examples of II7 and IVm6 you give (if I understand you right) are chord substitutions; II7 is a secondary dominant (or maybe a borrowing from tonic lydian?), and IVm6 is a borrowing from the parallel minor (of I).
Scale choice could be variable in these cases. Obviously you start from the chord arpeggio: which contains one chromatic note in each case. The question is: do we need any other chromatic notes?
If we keep the scale as close as possible to the tonic (key) scale, we get: mixolydian mode for the II7 (eg D mixolydian in C major), and melodic minor for the IVm6 (F minor in C major).
They work well - and they also work if we consider the likely function of each chord.
D7 in C major is probably heading for G or G7, so - as the natural V of G - should take the G major scale (D mixolydian).
Fm6 in C major is a little more ambiguous. Typically it follows F (F6 or Fmaj7), and is followed by C (C6 or Cmaj7). As such, a scale as near as possible to those either side (C major) makes sense, as it's really only a small passing variation of the IV chord.
But F dorian could equally fit, and might be worth considering. There are occasions in jazz where such a chord is followed by a Bb (Bb7#11 normally), which then moves to C(maj7); so F dorian is the best choice in that case.
IOW, chord function is still paramount (in determining what notes, other than the arpeggio, we use). With diatonic chords, we don't need to consider modal choices: we just use the scale of the key.
With chromatic chords (like these) we ask the function first: eg, is it a secondary dominant? is it a substitute for (or alteration of) a diatonic chord? what are the chords either side? That's the best way to determine the scale - and whether any flexibility is available.
Melodies are usually a pretty good guide here - and sometimes under-rated as sources of scale info!
The melody is the heart, the identity, of the song. Melodies can be reharmonised, which may (probably will) result in chord-scales changing. (The melody notes are not changed.) But the new chords will still have functional roles, probably linked by common scales.
In short, my whole point here is to understand and identify what scales a piece of music is already using.
We don't look at a chord sequence and say "I wonder what scales I can use (apply) here". We say "I wonder scales ARE being used here".
The chord sequence (and melody) TELL you the scale(s) you need. You rarely have any choice in the matter - and you shouldn't feel you need a choice! Why would you WANT to choose your scales? Why make things difficult, and risk sounding wrong?
It's hard enough using the given raw material in an inventive way without having another factor to consider.
Applying other modes/scales will not contribute other MOODS (this is the common misunderstanding). They only contribute wrong notes.
Of course, I'm speaking of improvising on a given composition! Not of jamming from scratch or composing your own material. Obviously, there, you're free to choose any scales or modes you like the sound of. |
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