For those who are in the dark as to what this is (like me, initially), check this link out:

http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/faq.htm

-- Drew

thanks drew, but where can i see pics of this?

Jason

well, there are a few pics under How it Works at the site, but I'd like to see actual guitars with the system. I finally got one of the FR guitars with the speed system and I love it. If I knew how, i would post a pic of me playing it at a local bar. It is still in tune, and I haven't played it for quite a while.

Jason

Chris:

I will expect a number of up close high quality digital pictures as soon as you get it. Is this sposetobe better than a FR? just like Dale, in tune? me? Sounds like it costs way too much, and, having a machine shop at my fingertips, perhaps i can reverse engineer this system.

This does sound very exciting, and I can't wait to hear from you how well it woiks.

Jason

Hi Jason,

WOW! LONG TIME NO SEE! How ya' been??? :)

Anyway, the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is not like a FR system, although, the new Buzz Feiten headstock nut gets mounted a fraction of an inch closer to the bridge. From what I was told by my luthier.

You see, the guitar is a flawed instrument, in how it's designed. Since the day the guitar was invented, it can never be in perfect tune, because of the intonation, neck tension, the way the necks are designed, the frets....the whole package!

You can tune ANY guitar (even with a Floyd Rose Locking Nut) until the cows come home, with the best chromatic tuner available, lock down the nut, play an open "G" chord......Ahhhhhhh....it sounds awesome!

Now play an open "D" chord....SOUNDS LIKE CRAP!

Now I dare you to play a barre chord at the 12th fret....SOUNDS EVEN WORSE!!!!!!!

The B.F. Tuning system changes all that. THE ENTIRE WAY UP THE FRETBOARD!!!!

Basically, with a "nut" change (keep your mind out of the gutter), and positioning it closer to the bridge, you can actually solve this problem. Now, yeah, there's probably a little more to it than that, but, you get the idea. It is "not" a locking nut.

So, it's not really like a FR. What it does is it solves the intonation issues with guitars. The FR locking nut only keeps the strings in tune, once you tune up. And that's it..... The guitar is still not "in perfect tune". Even though we may think it is.

A FR locking nut will only keep the guitar in tune for use of the Floyd Rose tremelo bar. You're up on stage, massive 80's guitar solo divebomb is required, you come back to regular position and you'll at least come back to a fairly in tune instrument, you keep playing, and everyone in the audience thinks you're still in tune. And, for the most part, you are. Don't get me wrong, the locking nut is still one of the best inventions for a guitar! PERIOD!!! But, it still doesn't solve the intonation issues.

I absolutely HATE....no....I DESPISE playing one chord, and having it sound great, only to play another chord elsewhere on the fretboard, and have it sound horrible! Same thing happens to scales!

When you buy a $2000 to $3000 guitar, this should not be (one thinks to themselves) but, because of the way the guitar was designed, this is a problem we just got used to, we just deal with it......I HATE IT!

Once I get my Guitars back (Monday afternoon) I will let you know more.

Take care Jason!!! :)

Chris

Yep, and I come here to find, like, hardly any posts, anyway some burglars got both of my PRS copies, as well as my roland guitar thang, and i am still lookin for a bass player and drummer who want to do classic rock. Have some hopefulls, but will see. The economy is killing me. My last GAS attack found me with a yamaha sy77, synth, and it is so damn much fun to play it. I just have to get up on stage with it. I have tried out for a few bands, but nothing really fruitful. Had a gig not too long ago with just one practice. It is nice to know other musicians who can do that.

I am anxious to hear later today about the BFTS.

Jason

Man,

I'm bummed....Just called the music store...The luthier was sick last week, have to wait until Wednesday (2 more days) to get my guitars...... >:(

RAT FARTS!!!!!

Chris

I was about as excited as you to hear about how it all turned out! Well, something to look forward to on Wednesday... ;)

Jim

Jim.....

I have this funny feeling, that when I go down to the music store to pick it up, I'm gonna play it, and start laughing, because, it'll be so cool to not have to hear a crappy chord ever again!!! LOL

Chris

Wish I could be there to watch the expression on your face! :) It will be a completely different guitar. You are going to love your new sounds.

Jim

I'm gonna try and remember to bring my digital cam with me, take a small video......

IF I remember! LOL

Chris

WELL?


Free Photo Cube Generator

Well, Jason.....

My Ovation is still a problem for my luthier.....

They're having one hell of a time trying to repair the bridge, ergo, my Strat ain't done yet.

As much as I can't wait to get them back, I want my Ovation fixed properly. I'm really bummed about that guitar.....man! what a drag......I'll be even more mad if it CAN'T be fixed....

Worst case:
I may have to ship it off to Kaman Corp. (see if they can fix it)....Or......

Buy a new one. And (THEY AIN'T CHEAP) at least, the model I purchased wasn't...

I have my Brian Moore, and it's a very good guitar, but, yeah, I want that Buzz system! hehe

Chris

Dang! Did it pull the top loose from the bracing? What are they
telling you the problem is?
Peace,
Alan

Well, Alan,

The bridge simply popped CLEAN OFF! I guess the dry heat in the house did a number on it. I mean, it went flyin'! LOL (well, kinda funny...but not really) hehe

But, my model is an Elite USA model with the small sound holes towards the neck. With the wood leaf trim.

And, well, they're having a hard time trying to figure out how to clamp it down. There's no large central sound hole, as in a typical acoustic....

That's their main problem.

Chris

Speaking of the flawed design and measures taken to address it... ...have you seen either one of these? Vai is a fan of this one:

True Temperament

This is an odd one, don't know if this has to do with pitch, but... ...interesting.

Novax Fanned Frets(Bass)

The true temperament system is damn near exactly the same as the Yamaha FG Model Guitar (Frank Gambale).

Frank designed a guitar along with Yamaha (a few years ago), in which the fretboard was almost identical to this system!

Chris

which one of the true temperament necks is best for us rockers?

bummer that it is taking so long for your luthier to complete.

Jason

The True Temperment one looks like it would make bending a little difficult. Anyone ever try this out?

You do not need to modify your playing technique. Bending is not affected.

Taken right off the website. Way to read Matt.

Still......It looks like it could be a bit strange for playing scales????

I don't know if I could get used to a fretboard looking like that....Then again, without playing it, I guess I'll never know. hehehe

Chris

Rusty Cooley has one of the Fanned fretboards to compensate for his 8 string guitars. He says that a lot of guys seem really intimidated by it but it's really natural. With that said, Rusty is Rusty freakin' Cooley.

I like bigger frets because i like to feel the strings fight back when I bend. I would imagine that the bigger you go in fret size the more cumbersome bending would be. I don't know if I entirely belive that it would be entirely unaffected. But then I don't entirely believe that brocoli is good for you.

Hi Matthew,

I haven't tried it.

A couple years ago I looked at my friend's music store to see if he had the Frank Gambale Yamaha model, but, he doesn't carry Yamaha guitars. I really wanted to try it out. Just for kicks...

But, you're right, it does look a little weird, and just might be hard to bend some notes.

Chris

This makes me wonder - if this is true and the BFTS fixes it, why isn't it standard on most guitars (or at least the expensive ones)? It seems to be changing the standard design formula of the neck (at least at the nut and bridge), but placing the nut it the right position in the first place would be easy at manufacturing time, and moving the bridge saddles is easy any time with most electrics.

The two reasons I can think of are that maybe it is too dependent on string thickness for it to do any good until you know what strings you are going to use, or that good old Buzz wants too much royalty from manufacturers for thinking of it first. It seems like he could have sold it to a manufacturer for millions (if their guitars are always in tune and others aren't they would sell a lot more). On the other hand, can you really patent the idea of where you put the nut? If you just happen like to put the nut on your guitars closer to the first fret than other people do, can they really say you are violating a patent? And who controls how someone set the saddles?

Looking at those other true temper guitars and how much they change each fret, it seems like if they are right, then the BF system is still only a compromise and you would have to change your guitar a lot more to get perfect tune. It may be that the very idea of a fretted instrument is flawed from the beginning, since you have to have some height above the frets and any movement toward them will stretch the string. A fretless instrument doesn't have this problem of course, because it is up to the musician to play the note at the right place to be in tune.

Just some meaningless rambling this afternoon!

-Dale

Dale,

I will "assume" it probably has to do with $$$...

However, not just any music store can get authorization to install this system.

Have to go thru training, and jump thru alot of hoops to get it....from what I understand.

But, I'm gonna ask my friend who owns this music store why that is. Like you say, if this is such a great system, why not have it on EVERY SINGLE GUITAR????

Chris

I kind of like the fact that it is not on all guitars. ;)

Just wait until you play with someone without it. They will immediately know that there is something wrong with their guitar. Then you can tell them your little secret...

Jim

LOL!

Yeah, that's true..... he he he he :)

Chris

"......if this is such a great system, why not have it on EVERY SINGLE GUITAR????"

Hi Chris,

With all this talk about the tuning system, I talked to the guy that just did a sweet job on my Strat's frets and fretboard. He is licensed to do the Buzz F. system. He told me that a lot of people don't have the ear to notice the tiny differences in the notes up & down the fretboard. That's one reason why all guitars don't have it. He mentioned that with a critical ear, a person can hear the slight off pitch tones of 3rds and 5ths. But most folks don't. However, once the system is put in place, then the player can usually hear the difference.

And like Jim H. said, if your guitar has it, then the other players you're jamming with that don't have it will hear the diff and wonder what is wrong with their guitars.

He has it on three out of four of his guitars and is eventually going to add it to his other guitar. He says it sort of drives him nuts playing the last one that isn't set up with it.

So, I guess if one's ear is NOT that critical, i.e. those twits in Sam Ash or Guitar Center that thrash away on chords and trying to play leads but don't realize they're not even remotely in tune, then it would not be for them.

If you can hear the little nuances of the slighty off harmonics or octaves, etc, then it would be for you.

I'm still debating on it myself. Like the guy said, if you get it on one guitar, then you'll probably want it on all of them. That would be
4 times approx.$130....Hmmm...Not this month!!

Later!

Andy

Hey there, Andrew,

Yeah, he's probably right....

I, however, DO notice those nuances... LOL...I think it has bothered me since the day I started playing guitar. But, that's probably the best answer I have heard.

I remember when the BF system came out onto the scene, I said to myself, "come on, it's probably a scam", and so did many of my friends....But, as time went on, I started to ask alot of questions, talked to alot of people who had it installed, and they all said "You HAVE TO try it!"

So, if it does what they all say it does, then, HEY! SIGN ME UP, BRUTHA! LOL

Chris

At least you can say you are on the list! ;)

Jim

(see below)

YEAH BABY!

Chris

And like Jim H. said, if your guitar has it, then the other players you're jamming with that don't have it will hear the diff and wonder what is wrong with their guitars.

If this is really true, then if someone, like say Ibanez, was putting a lot of them out there, then it seems like word would get around, because every musician that jammed with them would feel like their guitar sucked and would have to get one, then everyone that jammed with them would have to and so forth. Even people that couldn't hear the difference would want it so that other people would think they did (the "Emperors New Clothes" effect!). If it really is all about nut placement and saddle adjustment, it doesn't seem like it would be more expensive to do when the guitar is being built.

I guess it may just be that the difference for different string sizes is so great that putting a different string size on the cancels out all the advantages. Then they would have to say, "Use these strings or else you will be out of tune". That would be one good reason for not putting it on every guitar at the factory. Maybe the current formula is the best compromise they can come up with that will work for both thick and thin strings. (Of course, for custom orders, you could order the guitar "optimized" for your choice of strings.)

It will be interesting to hear if someone comes up with the final answer for this one.

-Dale

After market is not such a bad idea. Guitar margins on lower models may be so slim that to implement the BF system would possibly cause problems in either pricing or margin decisions for the manufacturer.

Since I have used the same string gauge all my life, it was not a leap of faith for me to decide. That being said, if I changed to a new string gauge, I would have a new nut installed and even if I had to pay again for the system, I would.

Think of it this way, an in tune guitar is a pretty cool effect if you ask me. So why the heartburn about cost when a lot of guys spend a load of money on pedals and other stuff to make their guitar sound better? All those efforts, and it is still out of tune.

Here is one thing that made a huge difference for me: I did not have to have my concentration divided because of having to compensate for tuning problems or just tolerate something that was not sounding right about the tuning.

Some may not be able to hear the difference, but I sure can. I don't have perfect pitch but I can tell if something is out of tune. These days I can restring my guitar, tune the E string and then check with the tuner. I'm usually dead on.

I think it is a bargain if you ask me.

my 2c

Jim

Hey Jim,

Like I say, I can't se any increase in manufacturing costs if you build it that way to begin with, at least for electrics that have adjustable saddles (which are nearly all of them). You don't have to use the "shelf" nut if you simply cut the groove closer to begin with. Then you just adjust it to one of the new tuners that will deal with this system (assuming they adjust them at all!), unless there is more to this than I am reading into it. I still wouldn't expect it to be on the super-cheapos, though.

Still, people do experiment with string gauges, so I guess this wouldn't be for them. I have finally settled on a gauge I like for electric, but I might yet be persuaded to try something different for acoustic.

An interesting idea, though, would be an individually adjustable nut as well as adjustable bridge. Then it would have flexibility to whatever tuning tricks folks wanted to try. This would add to cost, though, and most people probably wouldnt see the advantage, so I wouldnt expect to see it on many models.

As far as cost goes, $130 is probably more than either of my guitars are worth! If I ever get a spare buck, I would prefer to invest in a guitar that had a chance of actually staying in whatever tune I put it in through an entire song first. It wouldnt do any good to actually be in tune for a few seconds - it would just make me mad! When I do, (hopefully one day), I will definitely consider this.

-Dale

"Think of it this way, an in tune guitar is a pretty cool effect if you ask me."

I've been trying to find a place for this thought in this discussion, and this seems to be the most likely statement to respond to.

Out of tune guitar can be a pretty cool effect too. Link Wray's "Rumble" would sound pretty pathetic on a "BFed" guitar, and many great tunes by the Beatles sound much warmer and friendlier because of purposeful detuning. And Bill Frisell's personal method of dealing with out of tune notes within a chord led to one of the more compelling sounds in jazz guitar today, his neck bending technique. Sonic Youth may not be your cup, but I like 'em a lot, even though I'm a Jim Hiedinger fan; not a whole bunch of in-tuneness with that band ;-)

Very large pipe organs often have a rank of pipes or two that are purposefully sharpened in order to brighten things up when they are engaged. Kind of like ceyenne pepper in a recipe; you don't want a whole lot, but just the right touch can make things much more interesting. Keeping with a food analogy; most of the best tasting cheeses are also some of the stinkiest. I'd hate to be stuck with nothing but Kraft cheddar or even worse, Velveeta.

I'm all for the BF system; yeah for him; but I don't want to get so obsessed with in-tuneness that I miss out on sounds that can be all the more compelling because of their cheesy funk.

Great points made, David. There can certainly be a place for these kinds of sounds. The Stones always seemed to have that drunken out of tune sound in their playing too that made it sound so cool. Bill Frisell is a master at dealing with the subtleties of micro-tonal tuning in his attack of chords. In fact, a lot of the chorus sounds of great fusion players are using the concept of slight out of tune elements in their chordal work as well.

In fact, the BF system relies on a subtle out of tune condition to make the guitar sound in tune up and down the neck.

I understand the points made and appreciate you brining them into focus. :)

Jim

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have it on my Taylor at least. I just have too many priorities for my gear money that come in ahead of it. And it doesn't help that I need to travel 90 miles to have it done :-/ At today's gas prices, that adds a good $50 to the price :-/ :-/

Dale, Washburn is putting it on most of their upper end instruments. I think it's mostly because of royalty issues that others don't.

PRS does use the "dislocated" nut though, (and always has) which does make an open position E chord much sweeter. There's no royalty issue with that though, because compensated nut placement is an idea that's been around for a long long time. Back in the '60s, Microfrets even had a nut assembly that was individually compensatable for each string.

I think that Buzz's real accomplishment is the idea of stretching the tuning over the length of the fingerboard much in the same way that a well tuned piano will not "line up" with a strobotuner. The upper notes get progressively and very slightly sharper. It's my understanding that the note of the treble register then become more in tune with the upper harmonics of lower notes, so the fundamental tones may not be perfectly in tune, but the overall effect is more consonant.

Now doing this for all string types and guages is a big job to figure out, so kudos to Buzz imho, but be aware that there are also less radical measures that can be taken which can improve things quite a bit.

It's my understanding that the note of the treble register then become more in tune with the upper harmonics of lower notes, so the fundamental tones may not be perfectly in tune, but the overall effect is more consonant.

Yes, it is perfectly out of tune which makes it sound in tune all up and down the fretboard. Better to appreciate the effect by playing a guitar with the BF system.

Here is the impressive list of converts:

A partial list of artists using the Buzz Feiten Tuning System on
their guitars and basses:
Steve Vai
Larry Carlton
Robben Ford
Jim Heidinger
Chris Pinto
Robert Fripp
Adrian Belew
Pete Anderson
Liona Boyd
"Dimebag" Darrell
Mick Mars
Michael Landau
Tim Pierce
Dean Parks
Jackson Browne
David Crosby
Michael Thompson
Jeff Miley
The California GuitarTrio
Bobby Cochran
Stu Hamm
Jimmy Haslip
Melvin Gibbs (Rollins Band)
Malcolm Gold ( Movin Out)
Andrew Gouche
Joe Hall (Horizon Praise Band)
Dave Holland
Hughie (Johnny Wishbone\ Rubikon)
Justin Huth
Al Improta ( Luciar )
Dave Inamine (Michael Paulo)
Glen Kawamoto (Tish Hinojosa, Jimmie Dale Gilmore)
Tim Kelly (Trace Moran Band )
Booker King
Bill Lawrence
Markku Lappalainen(Hoobustank )
Bob Lee
Terry Lewis
Chris Loftlin (Brian McKnight)
Jim Mayer (Jimmy Buffett)
Don McGriggs (Gil Scott Heron)
Juan Nelson (Ben Harper and the Innocent Criminals)
Eoghan O'Neill (Riverdance)
Chris Parks
Patrick Pfeiffer
Lou Reed
Rawn Randall
Ben Rietveld (Santana)
Scot Risch ( South Fm )
Phil Collen
Todd Parsnow
Vivian Campbell
Will McFarlane
Tom Sanchez
Tommy Shaw
Trace Ritter
Travis Branson
Vernon Reid
Pat Kelley
Rod Janzen
Shawn Purcell

;)

Jim

I just love the way you and Chris are placed between Robben Ford and Robert Fripp. There's nothing like self confidence.

Think of it this way. Next time someone googles anyone on that list, our names will pop up on one of the search pages. Nothing like gorilla marketing. ;)

Jim

Nice.

Not a long list.

Feinten: Eric please convert, we need you.

Clapton: What's the buzz, tell me it's a Freitening.

I think your name would look great on there! ;)


Jim

LOL!!!

I see you're trying to convert another! LOL

Chris

Not sure this will work...
Replace cowbell with Buzz Feiten: