I haven't been here in sooo long, just dropped by and saw this, I used to love these :)

G9

Sandra

Bb7b9

Very nice Bob, you jazzer you!

One of my fav chords for sure....

Here the D note is fuctioning as a 3rd.

to sum up to this point, a D note has been used as a root, 3rd,
b3,
5th, b7, and 9th.

keep swingin bob,

Rob

An Ol' Timer! haha...nice to see you Sandra!

Again, I am going to nit pick here...since your single chord is not
part of a functional progression, IMO you should name it more
literally as compared to it's root note, so in this case I would
have called it Bm7b5.

As an aside for those who do not know, a min7b5 chord built on
the major 3rd of a dom7 chord is a popular substitution and will
yield a rootless dom9 chord.

that is a bit advanced for this excersize, so let's just say...

this is a Bm7b5 chord, and the D note is functioning as the b3.

keep pickin,

rob

I don't mind a bit of nitpicking ROFLMAO and I always did love those m7b5 chords, still do :)

Sandra

Hi Rob,

C#7 b9

Ah...very lovely Paul.

the D note here is functioning as the b9 in a C#7b9.

nicely done sir.

just to recap, we have not seen the melody note used as a 4th,
b5, #5, 6th/13th, or major 7th.

this is also a way to share/learn new voicings people!

rock on,

Rob

The possibilities are endless...

F#7#5

Bob

true, true...

We have our #5, however, it might have been prudent for
simplicity to call this chord either Gb7#5 or F#7b13. Technically
for F#7#5 the 5th would need to be called C##...yuck!

Hi Robert,

If you really want to be technical an F#7b13 won't work. The b13 requires the inclusion of the natural 5th.

Of course, whether you call it an F#7#5 or Gb7#5 really depends on what's going on in the music. Not to avoid using a note like C##.

Bob

actually, the 5th does not need to be present in the voicing... if
the music dictates the natural 5th, then it can be assumed. I was
just commenting that for a relatively basic exersize like this
(where we are referring to the melody note as a D), it may have
been appropriate to keep it simple and not get into enharmonics.

its all good sir!

Just trying to avoid confusing people. In an isolated context like this I don't really think you should assume anything...but that's just me.

Also, an enharmonic is Gb and F#, not necessarily a note like C## that occurs as a natural result of a chord symbol and spelling.

Having said that, I am all for keeping it simple.

Not trying to ruffle any feathers...

As you say, it's all good.

got me a bit confused bob...

It has always been my understanding that chord names assume
or imply tones that may or may not actually be contained in a
voicing (the structures being based on vertically stacked
3rds)...is this also your understanding?

For example, in the case of A13:

A13

The structure theoretically implied by the chord name assumes a
R-3-5-b7-9-13 (the 11th being an avoid note), even though the
voicing itself only contains the
R-3-b7-13. I have always interpreted harmony from chord
symbols in this fashion, either in an isolated context or in a
progression (where it can be further informed by context and/or
melody).

Anyhoo, yes....it's simply splitting hairs I suppose. In regards to
my enharmonic comment, I was referring to D and C##...they are
enharmonic equivalents (simply meaning they are the same
pitch), are they not?

It's been a long time since I dialoged about theory and
such...perhaps I need to shake the rust off, but that is why it's
great to talk about it!

regards,

Rob

Hi Rob,

One of the problems with chord names is a lack of convention. The other problem with the guitar of course is six strings and 4 fingers. Faced with this limitation we have to leave some notes out.

The A13 chord you have used as an example I have seen listed as an A7/6 because the 9th is missing.
And while chords are built in stacked 3rds there is a difference between a #5 and b13.

1 3 #5 b7

1 3 5 b7 9 b13

They are both stacked in 3rds but the chord symbols clearly call for different notes to be present. As guitar players we would have a more difficult time with the second chord so we may indeed leave out some of the notes.

In this case they may be picked up by another instrument or be part of the melody of the song but a #5 chord does not include the natural 5. That's why we have a b13. There has to be some way to differentiate the two.

Hope that clears things up.

Best Wishes,

Bob

Hmmm...well, that's not exactly the way I learned to interpret
chord cymbols.

An A6/7 is an undesirable symbol IMO to convey A13 (although
I'm sure it's been used...I have seen all kinds of crazy chord
symbols). If there is a 7th in the chord, then the 6th note should
be an extension and called a 13th. A proper 6 should have a 6th
replacing the 7th in the chord. I would interpret the A6/7 as the
author telling me to voice the chord with the 6th and 7th in the
same octave (with a min2nd between the
6th and 7th) I suppose.

Your right about conventions, however, IMO there is a common
and "proper" chord symbol terminology that does follow a
certain logic, and within that, there are some exceptions that
don't nicely fit.

the way you properly differentiate a #5 from a b13 is by
indicating it in the symbol! If a dom7 chord requires an altered
5th, then it should be written dom7alt...preferably with an
indication of the altered 5th or 9th in parenthesis. If a dom7
chord contains a b13, then it should be written dom7(b13), and
if there is no indication of a altered 5th or 9th, then they are
assumed to be natural.

so your two example chords should be notated:

aug7 or dom7(alt)

dom7(b13)

To me, what is happening with the fifth has been communicated
by the symbol...the first one has an altered 5th, the second one
has a natural 5th.

Another example of chord symbol assumption is with 3rd and
7ths....if a chord symbol doesn't indicate that a 3rd is min (i.e.
Cm), then you must assume it's major (i.e. C6). Also, if there is
no indication about a 7th (i.e. Cmaj7), then it is assumed to be a
b7 (i.e. C9 or Cm7).

You are right about the reason guitar players may leave notes
out of voicings, but I am talking about the harmony implied by
the chord symbol. Theoretically, the symbol may indicate that
there are more notes in the harmony than are contained in the
voicing, and this is not completely the domain of guitar players.
If a piano player was to interpret A13, they might also choose to
leave out the 5th from their voicing but they would also
understand that within the harmony, a natural fifth exists.

Your completely correct about there being a lack of real solid
methodology with chord symbols (as there is with standard
notation), but IMO if they are used properly then they are very
handy for a shorthand way of conveying a weath of information
to the reader.

Great to be talking abou this stuff....could WN be a productive
place again? crazy I say!

regards,

Rob

An A6/7 is an undesirable symbol IMO to convey A13 (although
I'm sure it's been used...I have seen all kinds of crazy chord
symbols).

An A7/6 indicates a dominant 7th with the 6th(13th) added without the 9th. The position of the tones octave wise doesn't matter.

I suppose you could use A13(omit 9)if you wanted.

IS there a difference between A7b5 and A7#11.

In my understanding of chord symbols the first chord is

A C# Eb G

and the second chord is

A C# E G D#.

To me those chord symbols clearly indicate what is happening and are shorter to write than what you suggested, although your suggestions may more clearly indicate what is intended without confusion. That's what I mean by a lack of convention.

My source for most of my understanding comes from
some of Ted Greene's books by the way. And he certainly was a master of harmony.

The A7/6 symbol comes straight from Ted.

Anyway... to each his own.

Bob

Hmm...for your examples, I didn't suggest anything other than
exactly what you did.

In both symbols there is a indicator for what is happening with
the
5th...in the first, it is indicated that it is altered (b5). In the
second,
the 5th is assumed to be natural since no indication regarding
the
5th (or 9th for that matter) was given. Not really sure where we
are
in disagreement here...

dom7b5, dom7#5, aug7, dom7alt, etc....there all acceptable
ways to me for a chord symbol in which the 5 is altered. I don't
really find one to be shorter to write than another, and certainly
it would be worth an extra character or two to communicate
useful information, like in a symbol such as dom7(alt) or dom7
(#5,#9).

Ted Greene...chord chemistry, right? Hmmm...I'll have to peruse
that volume again for that A7/6. Wonder what Mark Levine has
to say on that one, too...

anyhoo...regards,

Rob

Not really sure where we
are
in disagreement here...

I don't think we are. I was just elaborating on the points made...maybe not so well though.

Just that there is no norm for chord notation and there are many ways to write the same thing.

Bob

wow Bob...I was just checking out my copy of chord chemistry
and I
have to say...I never really gave much thought to the way Ted
named some chords in there but there are a bunch that I
personally
would have called something different. Weird! go figure...

Sure enough, right there on the first page of chords (p.13) is
your
A7/6! Curiously, he has the very next voicing named A13, and
the
only difference between the two voicings is one has the 9th in it!

Ted's A7/6

Ted's A13

I really wonder why he chose to name that first one A7/6? what
do you think? do you feel that A13 would have been a poor
choice for the name of that chord (I think most publications
would have predominantly used A13)?

I don't remember him elaborating about how or why he goes
about giving certain chords their names, but I did notice that
when addressing a dominant 7th chord with an added 13th and
no 9th, he
always uses this 7/6 symbol. He only does it
when the 9th is NOT included in the voicing...almost like he
intends to indicate that when you see 7/6 you should omit the
9th in the voicing, but then he doesn't use the same device to
address other voicings that include/omit certain extensions (like
in the above A13...the 9th is assumed to be included but the
voicing omits the 5th).

Hmmm...I will definitely check this out more closely ...thanks for
bringing it up. I love Ted Greene's stuff...really an unbelivable
beautiful player.

Rob

Hi Rob,

I think you pretty much nailed it and I talked about it above. The 13th includes the 9th and the 7/6 chord does not.

As you know, the 5th is an expendable tone in the grand scheme of things(unless it's altered of course).

Again, lack of convention when it comes to naming chords. I don't know what else to say about it.

Bob

I hear ya Bob...I don't think I am a fan of that symbol though.

It just doesn't seem that useful to me...as players, we are free to
voice harmony any way we like, so to use it as an "omit 9" seems
a little unnecessary to me. I would much rather know
information about the 9th...is it natural? is it altered? the
common symbols already address that IMO. I mean, to me, their
function is to communicate harmonic information while doing
double duty at times to suggest voicings.

I understand the natural 5th is a common tone to omit since it
doesn't contribute much to the color or character of a chord.

Is there a symbol that you know of that is intended to
communicate that you omit the 11, like dom9/13? I dunno..it's
just a weird chord symbol, that 6/7.

However, it is cool when symbols suggest certain voicings, and I
think it would be cool to use a symbol like that to sort of
suggest that you voice the 6th and b7th within the same
octave...that would be useful. Extensions are, in theory,
supposed to suggest notes in higer octaves. But alas...I
understand, it's not used like that.

I've never come across that symbol in lead sheets and music and
stuff...probably because it's a bit redundant when it comes to
conveying harmonic information. I can definitely see the
arguement for using it for a static chord name though.

your right though...any way you cut it, chord symbol
terminology is far from perfect!

Rob

Is there a symbol that you know of that is intended to communicate that you omit the 11, like dom9/13? I dunno..it's
just a weird chord symbol, that 6/7.

I think it's just understood and a matter of convention that the 11th is omitted because of the half clash between the third and the fourth.

In the end if you really want a specific voicing and notes then you have to use notation. Just think of the different ways to write C minor7.

Cmin7, Cmi7, C-7, etc.

...any way you cut it, chord symbol
terminology is far from perfect!

Bob