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So long and thanks for all the.....?

I haven't been coming around, much lately. Today I sign on and find I have 8 points less than I did a couple of weeks ago. I suspect that these were replys involved in Fake's post, through the years, as I see the "Buzz" is full of talk of his removal from the site.

Recently there has been blatant disregard for the forum rules, i.e. religion, politics are banned. No action has been taken in these matters. There has been filthy images and foul language. No action has been take in these matters. There has been an abundance of worthless and immature posting by children, who don't belong out of the sandbox. No action has been taken in these matters.

I think site moderation is a good thing, but it needs to be done in accordance with the rules and with an even hand. Sadly as a result of lousy and occasional only moderation Wholenote has seriously declined. It has declined to a point where its value, to those of us who come here to discuss music and guitars, is minimal.

All that being said, I would say thanks to those I have shared information and opinions with. I'm not saying, I'm not coming around anymore, but I don't see any point of coming around on a regular basis anymore.

Pat
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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

2/28/2007 5:28 PM

Rik Eischen (960) wrote:

Perhaps the forum's RULES should be reconsidered. Where some of these "violations" you mentioned have occured, it appears WNers are mature enough to discuss thoughts respective of others. I personally have not seen any major attacks or hatred expresssed to others on these so-called taboo topics.

If we can have a Miscellaneous and an Open forum, why not open it to free speech. Those who oppose free speech or disagree with comments made do not need to read them. One can ignore what one does not care to read, or instead, respond maturely. It would be a personal judgement as to whether it deserves a response or not.

Regarding the Fake issue, I just learned of it today. Good points on both sides. There' the comedy about it, but how would beginners respond to his off-the-wall "instruction." If WNers paid money to buy lessons from a personal website of his, it could be a problem, but a simple WN statement claiming WN doesn't endorse all that is "taught" through WN should suffice. It probabally already esists on the RULES page.

I understand what your saying about WN no longer meeting our guitar needs. While I respect your choice and your right to your opinion, I ask, how can we improve WN and be part of the solution?

-Rik.



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/12/2007 12:14 PM

Dale Lindsey (8281) wrote:

Hey Rik,

If you have been here for a long time, you remember why those rules were posted. It is because, in the past, we had some terribly big fights going on in these pages and the moderators really did not know what else to do. They usually don't pay any attention to threads about any topic as long as no one complains about it. I think rules about religion or politics or whatever are mainly there to give them a valid reason if they feel they need to take action about a thread or a member.

Of course, there are those who take the rules more seriously. For them, I created another site where Wholenote folks could go to argue taboo subjects. There haven't been many takers lately, though. I hope this means that people have been able to discuss what they want to here in a reasonable fashion and so have not had to take it anywhere else.

Regardless, it is important to for everyone to realize (this is not directed at you, but just in general) that there is nothing to stop anyone from posting anything they want in this forum. The only thing we can do is try to get the offending material removed as soon as possible.

For anyone that doesn't know the history of this site, it was originally created as a school project, and just sort of hung around. So most people are just glad it is still here, and try to deal with the occasional troll post (of course, the best way to deal with such things is not to respond to them). It is really not as bad as a lot of the forums I have seen on the net.

Take care,
Dale



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/13/2007 1:59 PM

Rik Eischen (960) wrote:

"...in the past, we had some terribly big fights going on in these pages"

Dale,

I do not consider myself to be a long-time member, though I've been around for a while. The "terrible big fights" to which you refer probably pre-dated me, both here at WN and when I was more active at AB (Active Bass). I have seen some disbutes from time to time, but nothing earth-shattering.

When I was younger, some people cared about me enough to share some Good News with me that has changed my life. It is a part of who I am. For some people it may be easier to compartmentalize one part of their life from another. I find it awkwards, at at times difficult to do so without being true to who I am.

To be entirely clear here, I am not out to use WN to try to convert anyone to anything. On the otherhand, I believe it is wrong to have to refrain from saying anything which could possibly offend anone. Just about anything will in fact offend somebody. I do not seek to be offensive in my speech and writings, but I do seek to be honest and to be me. If there is no room for me here, that is too bad.

My main reason for coming to WN is because I play the guitar (well, some people would say I do...), I practice fairly regularly, I perform from time to time, and I'm interested in things related to the guitar. I have a lot to learn about guitar, both with my mind (theory, etc.) and with my fingers.

Like anyone else, I have times when I need to work through other subjects not guitar related, or take a break. Open and Miscellaneous forums are nice because for even those times guitarists can even discuss other things they may have in common with one another, or may differ on. Spots may be one such thing. Weather, another. But if one is experiencing something in their country that is shaking up their life because the world around them is significantly changing and they are trying to deal with such changes, must one feel forbidden to say anything because it might be labeled "political" and therefore taboo? Or is it so terrible to with someone a Merry Christmas or Happy Christmas or Blessed Christmas? If someone wishes me a Happy Channukah I won't be offended. I wouldn't mid learning more of what Channukah means to me. But while some can argue "religion" in a hateful manner, one can just as easily argue Darwinism in a hateful manner and claim his/her beliefs are not a religion. But if something upsets me a.) I don't have to read it. b.) I can respond to it respectfully c.) If it upsets me so much, I could ask the moderators if they might remove it. But must I separate myself from my beliefs and joys and sorrows and desires and experiences just to chat with other guitarists?
-Rik.




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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/13/2007 4:14 PM

Alan Roberts (10065) wrote:

Rik, type in "religion", or "politics" in the "Search Fretbuzz" and
look at the results. Not just the posts that it pulls up, but the
whole thread from which they stem.
Casual references may not incite an argument, but it doesn't
take much to escalate. A discussion that is being civil can turn
ugly just by having one person join in who overreacts or makes
an inflammatory statement (sometimes unknowingly).
There are people of many religions and politics here, and as a
general rule they all get along fairly well for the sake of
discussing guitar and music. I don't think anyone has to
separate themselves from their beliefs in order to discuss these
things without causing controversy.
Peace,
Alan



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/14/2007 7:58 AM

Dale Lindsey (8281) wrote:

Hey Rik,

Like I said, they pretty much leave us alone to talk about whatever we like as long as there is no trouble. I think the rules are mainly there so that if there IS a problem, they can say that people were warned. I have seen threads that got into religious or political topics without problems and were left alone. To me, it is not so much subject matter as how much we respect other's rights to their own beliefs and opinions.

There was a time however, when the forum got so bad it was almost impossible to use and something had to be done about it. I don't want to dredge up any old battles, so I don't want to go into any details, but let's just say that the simple solutions that some of the newer members suggest would not have worked here at the time. The administrators just did the best they could at the time.

There are some people who will become combative about some subjects no matter what. For those people, it is better that they leave those subjects alone, or find another forum where this kind of thing is more acceptable.

If you have a really sensitive topic that you want to discuss, you can come over to Politically Incorrect (link on my home page) and rant all you want. Leave a link in the buzz to let people know there is a new post. But don't be surprised if someone disagrees with your opinion!

-Dale




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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/14/2007 1:13 PM

Rik Eischen (960) wrote:

Dale,

Thanks for the comments. I'm not looking to rant about anything, by the way. Like i said earlier, I'm here because WN has what it does. If I were to rant, it would be that everything here is tablature without standard musical notation. I don't mind tab (and even appreciate it) so long as it is coupled with the musical staff. But I will pray that WN be forgiven for this omission.

-Rik.

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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/10/2007 7:03 AM

Derek Still (620) wrote:

Patrick,

Several people have recently been kicked off of Active Bass as well. The moderator there got on to the owners and complained about a posting that showed a topless lady holding a bass. It would not have raised Granny's eyebrow in Europe where the young poster came from, and when he was made aware that a nipple was considered porn in USA he apologised and offered to remove it immediately if someone could tell him how. Now AB is not the most sensible place to post a pic like that but absolutely no-one wanted to have the guy's account closed because of it. Especially as he said he didn't know what all the fuss was about it was just a pic of a pretty girl. And it WAS where he came from.

It resulted in a month of verbal hell, fire and brimstone over there, with the final outcome being his account was re-opened. But not before several of the more "senior" regular contributors with over 20,000 points quit in disgust and several others were also removed because they became too critical of the moderator. The initial demand for the pics removal came from one female who described the silicone jobs in the pic as "floatation devices and she wanted them removed" The moderator also a female jumped in immediately and got on to the owners who reacted swiftly.

The FAQ [rules] are particularly vague about what can constitutes indecency, certainly a boob is accepted as OK in Europe, they can be viewed on a daily basis on page 3 of most daily newspapers, or on many beaches in summer.

The fact that a minority are imposing their views of morality on the majority who didn't find if too offensive even though most felt AB to be an inappropriate place to post it, caused one hell of a row and has made a lot of very nice and knowledgeable folk leave in disgust. A really fun place to be has become a place where many, including myself feel they belong anymore.

We cannot live without rules, but they should be applied in a commonsense way, after all these things are seldom black or white, but usually some shade of grey. What is wrong with a PM warning and explanation of what is acceptable and what is not PRIOR to closure of an account?

Whole note is not alone! which is why I mention it.

No doubt AB will recover, unfortunately it has left a sour taste in many a good mouth, and will never be quite the same friendly place it once was. Currently there is a "them and us" atmosphere, where the actual problems are not even allowed to be discussed any more. People have been dumped for "flogging a dead cat". Crazy!

Derek



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/10/2007 7:08 AM

Derek Still (620) wrote:

...sorry! for "including myself feel they belong anymore."

please read "DO NOT belong any more."

Apparently, according to the moderator, the FAQ's [writen by the moderator herself] and considered to be the rules are being updated in consultation with the owners of the site, so may be they will update your's too.

Derek



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/13/2007 2:29 AM

Geoffrey Barnes (314) wrote:

PM for you.

Geoff :-)

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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/10/2007 11:21 AM

Wayne Daindudel (120) wrote:

Thats Pat for ya

-Are you Male of Female?

Anyways Im fairly new at posting anyways and I agree.
I am with you Pat.

I mean I dont mind those whom disregard forum rules...but to do it so Blatently with no respect for human decency is uncalled for.
Getting like that everywhere.
What has the world come to today.Last year some of the porn stuff which was posted here offended me and I left.
I think I too will become an ocassional observer rather than a participant.
Some of the useless drival Ive been reading lately just blows my mind on how blatently stupid and useless it really is. What ever hapen to humanitys intellect anyways!
Im outa here at least for posting or getting involved.
Cant carry on an intellegent thread about anything.
Good Geif!



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/12/2007 1:46 PM

Alfred Scoggins (5193) wrote:

I've got to be honest. I don't know any of you, and I certainly ain't no prude, but I don't see what porn has to do with music.



This website is about guitar playing and music. Religion, politics, porn, abuse, etc, have nothing to do with that. Posting that stuff just lowers the tone of the site, it devalues it.



There are lots of other sites on the net where you can post anything you want, so why do it here?



Best wishes,



Alf.



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/12/2007 11:37 PM

Charles Gacsi (42523) wrote:

There is only one place on this site for dumping garbage and that is under miscelaneous. The other places have a title that give direction which to travel.

Politics and religous views are taboo as there are too many views that some individuals wish to have everyone follow.

I doubt very much if there will ever be an agreement on what to express.

Charlie



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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/13/2007 6:34 PM

Rik Eischen (960) wrote:

"This website is about guitar playing and music. Religion, politics, porn, abuse, etc, have nothing to do with that. Posting that stuff just lowers the tone of the site, it devalues it."

Alf, are you serious?!!

What does "Religion" or "politics" have to do with "porn, abuse, etc..." Check out the origin of the word: "political," from L. politicus "of citizens or the state, civil, civic," from Gk. politikos "of citizens or the state," from polites "citizen," from polis "city". It relates to citizens and their interaction with one another. Music (including guitar music) does not exist in a vacuum. It exists in the real world, in real countries, in existing and changing societies. Some music reflects what is happening in the world around it. Other music does not, and maybe copying things influenced by other cultures and societies. But to try to separate music from people and the societies in which they interact is artificial and just plain false. Some music is understood by understanding the culture from whence it came. Other music does not need much cultural context to understand it, but "politics" is more than one ideology verses another. I like the soundtrack of the movie Evita. The music reflects the culture and what is happening during an era.

Religion has nothing to do with guitar? Tell that to countless guitarists across the world who play guitar in church, myself included. Music, like art, has had a connection to "religion" for centuries. Try visiting famous art museums in Europe and tell me religion has no connection. Same with music: Handel's Messiah, Johann S. Bach, et al. Classical and fingerstyle guitar can include sacred pieces as well as non-religious works. There is a connection, and a place for such discussion. Appropriate discussion should not be grouped with that which seeks to be disrespectful and flaming to others.

-Rik.







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Re: So long and thanks for all the.....?

3/13/2007 11:23 PM

Alan Roberts (10065) wrote:

Just go back three posts before yours and read what Wayne said.
You'll see the initial reference there.
Sometimes it's tough to join a conversation midway through
without knowing what's been said up to the point that you join in.
Just going back a few posts to the beginning of the thread always
seems to be enlightening for me.
Peace,
Alan

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