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Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

Hi guys,

This is my first post to the Theory forum! Wooo!
Anyway, I was hoping that the more advanced of you would be able to explain to me the basics of harmonising (so I can use it in solo's and rhythm) and all the stuff like modes, 3rds, 5ths, and stuff(for constructing chords). I hear the modes and 3rds all around, but I've never really understood what they meant.

I know I'm being selfish, but please could at least one of you just take the time to give me a well thought answer? I know I'm being lazy in not searching the boards, but, I know that one of you has the knowledge to help me :)

Thank you :)

/Steve
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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/17/2004 11:34 AM

Jon Riley (9697) wrote:

Sounds like you're asking about the whole of music theory: harmonising, modes, constructing chords... that's a few books right there! :-)

I suggest you search the Lessons (not the boards) - there must be dozens that will give you most of the answers you want.

When you've done that, come back with any more specific queries...
:-)

JonR



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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/18/2004 4:44 AM

Stephen Whitwoth (531) wrote:

Mkay then, thanks for your help Jon :)

/Steve

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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/23/2004 6:35 AM

Steve Cass (14762) wrote:

Stephen--

I'd say it'd be wise for you to spend time in learning basic harmony structure first (what is a third above the root?), and then tackling the rest.

It's not a matter of you being lazy, but you need to look for specific things in the lesson section.

Steve

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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/23/2004 7:22 AM

Helgi Briem (2654) wrote:

Here's the short course.

All Western harmony is based upon the Major Scale.

The Major Scale uses seven notes:

1_2_34_5_6_78 (note the gaps)

It can also be expressed as a sequence of whole (tones) and half-steps (semitones):

WWHWWWH

The simplest major scale is C major which has the following notes:

C_D_EF_G_A_BC

The intervals from the root note (1) to the note in question are the most fundamental unit of music:

C-D = major 2nd (9th if more than an octave)
C-E = major 3rd
C-F = perfect 4th (11th if in next octave)
C-G = perfect 5th
C-A = major 6th
C-B = major 7th

There are 5 more intervals (notes) that are not part of the major scale as such. They are annotated with either a # (sharp) or b (flat) symbol and often have several alternative names:

C-Db (C#) = minor 2nd (b2 or b9)
C-Eb (D#) = minor 3rd (b3 or #9)
C-Gb (F#) = diminished 5th (b5, #4 or #11)
C-Ab (G#) = minor 6th (augmented 5th, #5, b6 or b13)
C-Bb (A#) = dominant 7th (minor 7th or b7)

Chords are formed by picking every other note. This is also known as harmonising in thirds. The chords in each key (examples in C major) are:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 C D E F G A B C Chord no. Chord name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 3 5 C E G I C major
2 4 6 D F A ii D minor
3 5 7 E G B iii E minor
4 6 8 F A C IV F major
5 7 9 G B D V G major
6 8 10 A C E vi A minor
7 9 11 B D F vii B diminished


C is not the only key, though it is often used as an example because it is simplest. There are 12 keys, each with a corresponding relative minor key:

Key Minor Signature 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C major A minor C D E F G A B
G major E minor # G A B C D E F#
D major B minor ## D E F# G A B C#
A major F# minor ### A B C# D E F# G#
E major C# minor #### E F# G# A B C# D#
B major G# minor ##### B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# major D# minor ###### F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F major D minor b F G A Bb C D E
Bb major G minor bb Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major C minor bbb Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab major F minor bbbb Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db major Bb minor bbbbb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb major Eb minor bbbbbb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F


There are more chord types than the simple triad chords shown above. Here are some common types:

Chord Notes
major 1 3 5
6 1 3 5 6
7 1 3 5 b7
maj7 1 3 5 7
9 1 3 5 b7 9
maj9 1 3 5 7 9
11 1 3 5 b7 11
add11 1 3 5 11
13 1 3 5 b7 13
add9 1 3 5 9
sus2 1 2 5
sus4 1 4 5
5 1 5
minor 1 b3 5
min7 1 b3 5 b7
min9 1 b3 5 b7 9
dim 1 b3 b5
dim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 (6)
min7b5 1 b3 b5 b7
aug 1 3 #5
6/9 1 3 5 6 9

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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/24/2004 3:56 PM

Daniel Maximus (252) wrote:

Yo Helgi..

This info is most appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to type it up, I was just looking around and found something that gave me a better understanding..

"I'm in love with Music..."
..Solo~

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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/24/2004 4:25 PM

Mike Smith (9737) wrote:

whow theres my next 6 months worth of lessons on one post.

thanks for that it was really great.

oz

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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/25/2004 8:15 AM

Jon Riley (9697) wrote:

In the spirit of completeness...

Half-steps:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
1 . 2 . 3 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 8 . 9 .10 11.12 .13
TWO-NOTE CHORDS
5 1 5 .
.
TRIADS
major 1 3 5 .
minor 1 b3 5 .
dim 1 b3 b5 .
aug 1 3 #5 .
sus4 1 4 5 .
sus2 1 2 5 .
.
4-NOTE CHORDS
7 1 3 5 b7 .
maj7 1 3 5 7 .
6 1 3 5 6 .
add9 1 3 5 . 9
m7 1 b3 5 b7 .
m(maj7) 1 b3 5 7 .
m(add9) 1 b3 5 . 9
m6 1 b3 5 6
dim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 . (WH dim)
m7b5 1 b3 b5 b7 . (locrian)
7sus4 1 4 5 b7 .
maj7#5 1 3 #5 7. (lydian augmented)
7#5 1 3 #5 b7 . (wholetone)
7b5 1 3 b5 b7 . (wholetone)
.
5-NOTE CHORDS
9 1 3 5 b7 . 9
maj9 1 3 5 7 . 9
6/9 1 3 5 6 . 9
m(maj9) 1 b3 5 7 . 9
m9 1 b3 5 b7 . 9
m6/9 1 b3 5 6 . 9
maj7#11 1 3 5 7 . #11 (lydian)
7#11 1 3 5 b7 . #11 (lydian dominant)
9sus4 1 4 5 b7 . 9
7b9 1 3 5 b7 .b9 (HW dim)
7#5#9(7alt)1 3 #5 b7 . #9 (altered)
7#5b9(7alt)1 3 #5 b7 .b9 "
7b5#9(7alt)1 3 b5 b7 . #9 "
7b5b9(7alt)1 3 b5 b7 .b9 "
9#5 1 3 #5 . 9 (wholetone)
7b13 1 3 5 b7 . b13 (mixolydian b6)
m9b5 1 b3 5 b7 . 9 (locrian natural 2)
susb9 1 4 5 b7 .b9 (phrygian)
.
6-NOTE CHORDS (optional notes in parentheses)
m11 1 b3 5 b7 . (9) 11
13 1 3 5 b7 . (9) 13
maj13 1 3 5 7 . (9) 13
13sus4 1 4 5 b7 . (9) 13
maj9#11 1 3 5 7 . 9 #11 (lydian)
9#11 1 3 5 b7 . 9 #11 (lydian dominant)
13b9 1 3 5 b7 .b9 13 (HW dim)
9b13 1 3 5 b7 . 9 b13 (mixolydian b6)
.
7-NOTE CHORDS (optional notes in parentheses)
maj13#11 1 3 5 7 . (9) #11 13 (lydian)
13#11 1 3 5 b7 . (9) #11 13 (lydian dominant)
m13 1 b3 5 b7 . (9) (11) 13 (dorian)

I've shown scales where a chord is specific to that scale (fits no other - not normally anyway).

And I'm sure I must have forgotten one or two...:-)
I've deliberately omitted "11"s and "add11s". I've not seen either chord, unless it's shorthand for a 7sus4 or sus4 (which are more correct symbols).

Of course, I'm talking standard jazz harmony here. All the above can be found in any comprehensive jazz real book.
If you disregard tertian harmony (building chords in 3rds) the potential combination of notes into chords is practically infinite.
In fact, many of the above chords employ some quartal harmony. (eg 6ths and sus chords)

JonR



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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/25/2004 10:50 PM

Chuck Stensrud (13014) wrote:

You and Helgi complement each other very well. How about getting together and writing a course . . .

%chuck%





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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/26/2004 4:26 AM

Helgi Briem (2654) wrote:

Oh, Jon knows far more about this stuff than I do. I just try to take some of the heat off him by subbing occasionally.





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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/26/2004 4:30 AM

Helgi Briem (2654) wrote:

In the spirit of completeness ;)

As for two note chords or doublestops, there are a few others, besides the 1-5.

The 3-b7 (tritone interval) is often used in jazz as a substitute for the dom7.

A 1-3 or 1-b3 interval can be a sparse sub for a major or minor triad chord (probably most often used by bass players).

I can't think of any other really useful ones, although on a bass I have used a series of 1-9, 1-10, 1-11 and 1-5 doublestops to play a melody over a bass note.



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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

11/28/2006 3:11 PM

Adriano Parmiggianno (6825) wrote:

Great chart Jon!



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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

11/28/2006 5:06 PM

Craig Lindsey (5518) wrote:

Thanks for bumping that, AP
It is so beautiful, I never get tired of looking at the forms of Western music. Like looking at great painting or scultpure.
Craig



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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

11/28/2006 6:19 PM

Adriano Parmiggianno (6825) wrote:

Here's the Color Version:



Building Chords
Half-steps:| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
1 . 2 . 3 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 8 . 9 .10 11.12 .13
TWO-NOTE CHORDS(Diads)
P5 1 5 .
P4 1 4 .
.
TRIADS
major 1 3 5 .
minor 1 b3 5 .
dim 1 b3 b5 .
aug 1 3 #5 .
sus4 1 4 5 .
sus2 1 2 5 .
.
4-NOTE CHORDS
7 1 3 5 b7 .
maj7 1 3 5 7 .
6 1 3 5 6 .
add9 1 3 5 . 9
m7 1 b3 5 b7 .
m(maj7) 1 b3 5 7 .
m(add9) 1 b3 5 . 9
m6 1 b3 5 6
dim7 1 b3 b5 bb7 . (WH dim)
m7b5 1 b3 b5 b7 . (locrian)
7sus4 1 4 5 b7 .
maj7#5 1 3 #5 7. (lydian augmented)
7#5 1 3 #5 b7 . (wholetone)
7b5 1 3 b5 b7 . (wholetone)
.
5-NOTE CHORDS
9 1 3 5 b7 . 9
maj9 1 3 5 7 . 9
6/9 1 3 5 6 . 9
m(maj9) 1 b3 5 7 . 9
m9 1 b3 5 b7 . 9
m6/9 1 b3 5 6 . 9
maj7#11 1 3 5 7 . #11 (lydian)
7#11 1 3 5 b7 . #11 (lydian dominant)
9sus4 1 4 5 b7 . 9
7b9 1 3 5 b7 .b9 (HW dim)
7#5#9(7alt)1 3 #5 b7 . #9 (altered)
7#5b9(7alt)1 3 #5 b7 .b9 (altered)
7b5#9(7alt)1 3 b5 b7 . #9 (altered)
7b5b9(7alt)1 3 b5 b7 .b9 (altered)
9#5 1 3 #5 . 9 (wholetone)
7b13 1 3 5 b7 . b13 (mixolydian b6)
m9b5 1 b3 5 b7 . 9 (locrian natural 2)
susb9 1 4 5 b7 .b9 (phrygian)
.
6-NOTE CHORDS (optional notes in parentheses)
m11 1 b3 5 b7 . (9) 11
13 1 3 5 b7 . (9) 13
maj13 1 3 5 7 . (9) 13
13sus4 1 4 5 b7 . (9) 13
maj9#11 1 3 5 7 . 9 #11 (lydian)
9#11 1 3 5 b7 . 9 #11 (lydian dominant)
13b9 1 3 5 b7 .b9 13 (HW dim)
9b13 1 3 5 b7 . 9 b13 (mixolydian b6)
.
7-NOTE CHORDS (optional notes in parentheses)
maj13#11 1 3 5 7 . (9) #11 13 (lydian)
13#11 1 3 5 b7 . (9) #11 13 (lydian dominant)
m13 1 b3 5 b7 . (9) (11) 13 (dorian)




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Re: Harmonising, and 3rds and 9nths, and all that stuff

4/25/2004 1:35 PM

Stephen Whitwoth (531) wrote:

Wow.. Thanks a lot for that, I've bookmarked it, and copied it into a wap page so I can view it on my phone, it's that great :)

/Steve