Share This Thread Musical score Evan Unrue (2) Theory Forum 11/22/2006 7:20:06 AM · 69 Views [Respond to this Message] I've been playing for 16 years now.. but have only just started tapping into the theory behind the practical. I understand the principals behind scale intervals, chord constuction, circle of 5ths Etc.. but taking it any futher is proving troublesome as all the theory books I get on the subject are writting in musical score and I'm a through and through Tab man.. recently learned to read music at a basic level.. Does anyone have any advise for playing music from score on guitar... having difficulty with finger positioning etc

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• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/22/2006 8:55:42 AM Adrian Dupree (6318) wrote: Evan, I discussed this in the Standard Musical Notation post (click here) that I made. Check it out. The guitar is one of those instruments that are more suitable for tab. It's as if learning musical notation is unnatural. I can read some music since I used to play clarinet but it seems difficult to learn it now. Of course, I am a shredder at the moment who is learning Paganini-type music. Hope this helps. Adrian

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/22/2006 7:46:57 PM Shad Tele (2460) wrote: "The guitar is one of those instruments that are more suitable for tab. It's as if learning musical notation is unnatural." Why? Because there are multiple finger positions for the same note? Violinists deal with the same thing (and it's more of an advantage than a problem). Because the guitar is tuned in fourths? So is the contrabass. Because the guitar has six strings? Come on, there are those who play five string violas. One more string, if they could fit it, wouldn't put them over the deep end. Let's face it: the bottom line is that most guitarists can get away without knowing how to read standard notation - so they don't bother to learn. Because that choice is so widespread doesn't mean it's more difficult for guitarists than other musicians - and it certainly doesn't it's not beneficial to read score rather than tab. Don't make excuses.

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/22/2006 8:03:43 PM Adrian Dupree (6318) wrote: Shad, I remember you having this discussion before. I agree with both sides of the issue. Guitarists are dependent on tablature because they play an instrument that makes standard notation more difficult to read in comparison to other instruments. On the other hand, most sheet music is in tablature which of course takes away the guitarist's interest in learning standard notation. Simple as that. Adrian

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/22/2006 10:43:48 PM Shad Tele (2460) wrote: "I remember you having this discussion before." Then I fear you may have missed the point. "Guitarists are dependent on tablature because they play an instrument that makes standard notation more difficult to read in comparison to other instruments" Yeah, you missed it. My point is that it is not harder to read standard notation on the guitar. It is perhaps even easier to read standard notation on a guitar as compared to other instruments. The excuse that there are multiple finger positions for the same note does not fly - there are numerous other instruments that pose the same problem and their players overcome it. And I have never heard another argument for why it is harder to read standard notation on the guitar. Simply put: It's not harder for guitarists to read notation, man, it's just that there's a veritable coloring book version of notation available for guitarists that isn't an option for other instrumentalists.

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/25/2006 8:50:31 AM Chris Russell (3046) wrote: for me, I had been reading treble cleff since '1973 (wow, was that a typo?). the advent of picking up the guitar and tab with it made me a bit lazier. but it's not loosing the skill is an issue, the one that gets me is the bass cleff. lol. like piano, playing split cleff. if your not used to doing it, it seems more difficult. like a guy who spends his time watching football, then sees you playing guitar and says. "man, that looks soooo difficult. I could never do that" Chris3

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/25/2006 1:03:14 PM Jon Riley (9692) wrote: I agree with Shad. Notation is no harder for guitarists to read than for any other musician - with the exception of pianists. (Pianists have it easy because every white note is a line or space, and sharps and flats are the black notes. But then they have the problem of learning two clefs instead of one!) "On the other hand, most sheet music is in tablature which of course takes away the guitarist's interest in learning standard notation. Simple as that." This is simply not true. "Most sheet music" is in standard notation. (I guess you meant music for guitar, but no musician should limit themselves only to music written for their instrument.) In any case, even for guitar music, most of it is written jointly in tab and notation. It's simply not possible to read a piece of music that is in tab only - unless you have access to a recording to get the timing info (rhythm and the note lengths). You're right, tho, that the presence of tab discourages beginners from learning notation - I know this from teaching. (This is of course assuming that they are playing tunes where they already know the timing.)

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/25/2006 1:23:59 PM Adrian Dupree (6318) wrote: Jon, (I guess you meant music for guitar, but no musician should limit themselves only to music written for their instrument.) Yes, I meant guitar music. It's simply not possible to read a piece of music that is in tab only - unless you have access to a recording to get the timing info (rhythm and the note lengths). Are you saying that most tab doesn't have timing or rhythm indications? That's not true. There are plenty of guitar magazines out there that have rythm symbols on top of the numbers in the tablature. Have a look inside Speed Mechanics for Lead guitar on Amazon; the tablature has note stems. All in all, I guess I should agree more with Shad. Especially about the different instruments. The keyboard instruments are really the easiest for standard notation. Adrian

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/26/2006 6:27:21 AM Jon Riley (9692) wrote: "There are plenty of guitar magazines out there that have rythm symbols on top of the numbers in the tablature." Accepted. I haven't checked the book you mention (I need to sign up to amazon to see the relevant pages), but I have seen tab that uses symbols borrowed from standard notation - which actually means you need to understand that part of notation to start with (so you may as well learn notation anyway) - or uses some graphic system to mark beats and fractions of beats. The latter is actually a pretty good idea. I have no quarrel with tab that indicates rhythm and timing clearly. It would be even better if it could indicate note length and rests. (I haven't seen tab that does this - it seems to regard it as unimportant.) The real advantage of staff notation (and the way it has evolved) is as an easily hand-written system. That still applies among working musicians, but the more we use printed material to read from - and the more we can use our own software to prepare written music - the more those complex and graphic tab systems become as usable as staff notation. One thing is certain - the more info tab shows about timing, etc, the more cluttered it gets, and the more elegant and economic (beautifully designed) staff notation looks in comparison. Of course, tab still does something notation can't do (without becoming equally cluttered itself) - show you where to put your fingers! And that is a mixed blessing of course. The unique advantage guitar has over most instruments is that we can play one pitch in many different places - and tab seems to want to deny us that. Still, I'm not anti-tab in principle. It does a job which notation can't do (or can't do as clearly). But the reverse also applies! Once you're literate with staff notation, it's amazingly liberating. You can read music written for any other instrument, and you can easily write down your own music. These are enormous advantages. (OK, we have audio recording and computer software to help us record/remember our compositions, but there's still nothing as immediate and quick as staff notation. Tab (if you include timing info) is not ideal as a handwritten medium.)

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/26/2006 6:59:49 AM Shad Tele (2460) wrote: Careful with coming down on the keyboard instruments as easy for reading notation. Remember a piano has 7.5 octaves to deal with... spread over two clefs. 10 (and occasionally more)simultaneous notes can be played, and a good piano texture usually has 3 independent voices. Compare that with most instruments's (guitar included) range of ~2.5 octaves that are generally only used (if not capable of more) to play monophonic or homophonic textures. Single note or single voice lines with chordal accompaniment are the norm. A typical guitar texture has 2 independent voices - with a maximum of 6 simultaneous notes that can be played. The ones that have it easy are the percussionists ;]

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/28/2006 1:35:10 PM Christian Miller (1937) wrote: Here's a thought. I agree, the guitar is mechancially a little more awkward to read on than the piano, but less so surely than the clasical strings. Lazy? Well no great player is lazy and there are many who never found the time to learn to read and write. Rather it's to do with the musical culture. As a jazz and rock guitarist, it's more use to me to be able to hear and play fluently than read from music. I still like to be able to read though. Reading and writing music has shaped classical music in a certain direction. Oral tradition has shaped popular music, folk and jazz. On the other hand most jazz instrumentalists who are not guitarists or bass guitarists these days have a fair bit (at least) of classical training. So one can feel like a bit of a numpty if you can't at least work out charts or read simple lead sheets. Pianists scare the crap out of me in general.

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/22/2006 11:53:12 PM Paul Smith (1083) wrote: The guitar is not more suitable for tab than standard notation. Guitarists have been playing the instrument for hundreds of years without tab. In fact, tab is a relatively recent development which is useful when used in small doses but becomes a horrible crutch if used exclusively. Learning standard notation is no more unnatural than a student in Germany learning English, or a student in the USA learning French. It is a different "language" if you will, but there is nothing "unnatural" about it. The trick is to immerse yourself in standard notation exclusively. Work slowly and painfully if you must, and if you are absolutely stumped you can research a tab of the music you are working on. I have found that if all I have is sheet music of standard notation I can get used to it pretty quickly. Once tab shows up beneath the standard I cheat and before I know it I have lost the skill of reading standard notation until I go back to it exclusively. Steve Kaufman teaches what he refers to as the Bible method of working problems out..."seek and ye shall find." If you are working on a piece of music in standard notation and you have a chord that you cannot finger in the first position, move up the neck and find the main melody note. Chances are, with a little noodling you can find the other notes on adjacent strings. Carefully make a diagram of the finger position you have created above the phrase you are working on. Before long, you will become adept at recognizing that position again (most western music repeats with some consistency) and you have climbed another peak in your learning curve. The worst thing to do is make excuses like "guitar is more suited to tab, therefore I don't have to learn standard notation." "Can't never did and couldn't never could. Believe you can and you'll do good." Paul

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/23/2006 7:04:11 AM Andy Wood (5104) wrote: Actually tab was used extensively for fretted instruments before notation was widely adopted. A little known fact. The early lute masters recorded their music on tab lines. It was considered the most practical method of documenting the exact way a piece was played. Notation wasn't adopted until music began to be more widely shared between instruments so a universal system was required. I find notation far preferable myself, but tab has it's place because it can help to avoid a long drawn out explanation of life the universe and everything when all you want to do is quickly impart something. It really depends on the willingness of the student to comprehend the whole picture rather than get a quick result.

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/23/2006 8:40:29 AM Adrian Dupree (6318) wrote: I agree.

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 12:00:48 PM Paul Smith (1083) wrote: Little known facts are often urban myths if proper documentation is not provided. Do you have a source that states (with certainty) that tab precedes standard notation for guitar music? The reason I am suspicious is that tab is incomplete - as other posts in this thread point out it cannot convey timing and other nuances that standard notation can provide. I do not mind being corrected when I am wrong. However, I have had several guitar instructors, and not one of them has ever mentioned tab as preceding standard notation in guitar music. I would like a reference that I can verify this "fact." Paul

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 4:21:44 PM Andy Wood (5104) wrote: There is a point in history when the guitar/lute/vihuela sort of blend together in terms of their history/contruction/repertoire. So speaking specifically about the guitar can be difficult for the period I am referring to, but the facts remain the same. The source from which I based my comments was actually during my own studies of musicology at University. I studied under Professor John Griffiths who is one of the most renowned experts of early music and covers this period. He showed me some original copies of early lute music and I saw many reprint editions in our library. They can be seen at any large institutions with a music faculty. Go there if you can and look up some early pieces by John Dowland. The reprints also include a line of modern standard notation for comparison, but the tabs are genuine facsimiles of the original documents. The detail you refer to is actually there. At the start of any tabbed piece you will see information about the tuning, the rhythm is indicated above each number in a system of stems and note-heads much like our modern system. It isn't as rich in symbols like dynamics, but tempo markings are often there. You have to remember that at this time even standard notation was fairly plain. Have you ever seen Bach original? No detail at all - it's just notes. The reason is that at this time, musicians were expected to know what was required of a piece - what was appropriate expression, tempo, dynamics. Any other details were the option of the performer as long as he did it in a stylistically appropriate way. Figured bass is a great example of how much freedom players had and how minimal the notation was. Do a google on that - it's very interesting. As far as your instructors go, they didn't mention it because they didn't know it! How many guitar teachers these days do you think have gone back and looked at early transcriptions of music composed in the 16th century? I wouldn't have either if it weren't for the fact that I was introduced to it by the professor I mentioned above. Guitar teachers assume that notation came first without checking. It is them who you should be challenging to provide evidence for their statements. They have made an assumption that Tab is a modern invention for those who want to take the easy way out. It is their myth not mine. By the way, I still try to teach in modern notation because I agree that it is a superior system to Tab. I use Tab where it is a more efficient option and the alternative is too difficult. Andy

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 11:04:11 PM Paul Smith (1083) wrote: Andy, you have provided all the "evidence" I would need, and I accept your answer. From your description it would appear that early tab and early notation did not vary that much. As western music developed it is obvious that, as a matter of function, muscians saw the value of notation over tab and that is how most music has developed. I cannot speak to what my instructors know or do not know regarding notation/tab. I have learned from some tremendous teachers - some from a university, some from a conservatory. What an instructor does not reveal to every student does not mean he/she does not speak to their overall knowledge. I do know that they stressed the value of reading music and the pitfalls of relying on tab. I am sorry if my response seemed to be directed against you. I was really miffed about a prior response. The one who started this thread needed some encouragement and some good thoughts about learning the skill of reading music. I really hope this thread drift has not discouraged him (if he's even taken time to read it). But I appreciate your comments - and like I said I am way past being too stubborn to admit I'm wrong. Take care, Paul

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/26/2006 6:45:47 AM Shad Tele (2460) wrote: You know, I think the main problem with tab is that it bars the player from understanding what he's playing cerebrally - which in turn can hinder artistic interpretation of the music - in the event that the player is not intimately familiar with the piece already (in which case, you probably don't need any variety of notation). Notation can often convey what the composer was thinking in a specific passage. A simple example is enharmonic spelling - a chord can have multiple notation spellings even though the different spellings all sound the same (and look the same in tab) - but the different enharmonic spellings indicate separate functions and thus should be interpreted differently by a good performer. But you'd really only know to do that if you saw the standard notation!

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/26/2006 7:23:18 AM Andy Wood (5104) wrote: Yes, I agree it can do that. Being a fluent reader of standard notation, I know how useful it can be. On the other hand I have known players who could very quickly determine what key something is in and what is going on just by glancing at tab. It is basically a case of if you have enough skill and knowledge behind you, you can make music out of any notational system. The obvious benefit of standard notation is its universality when communicating with other instrumentalists. All notational systems have their strengths and weaknesses, that's why they exist. Andy

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 12:33:19 PM Paul Smith (1083) wrote: After thinking about this issue further... The fact that music played on lutes was recorded on tab lines has no bearing on guitar music. The lute was an ancestor to the guitar, but a distant one. Show me evidence that the early guitar masters (primarily Spanish) tabbed their creative works and I will agree to your statement. The argument made above that I disagree with the strongest is the statement that the guitar is better suited for tab, not standard notation. I would be interested to know if there is a single conservatory or music college that instructs guitar students using tab. If, as Adrian opined, the guitar is better suited for tab, then there sure is a lot of wasted instruction going on. Tab is useful if you want to learn a specific song or piece of music, but it is dreadfully inapproriate to attempt to teach someone the theory of music. So, while you might be able to learn how to play a song using tab, you will never be able to understand the music you are playing. As I understood the query of the one who started this thread, he was looking for encouragement to continue to learn standard notation. It is not an easy task, and I for one understand his question. If the student will stay with standard notation and wean him/herself off of tab he/she will be a much better musician. You can be an accomplished guitarist using tab, but the difference between being a good guitarist and being a good musician is the difference between being able to speak in English and being a poet. One simply uses an instrument, the other has mastered an art form. Paul

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 4:33:23 PM Andy Wood (5104) wrote: The vihuela is the most direct ancestor of the guitar, but the lute is not that distant. I can play a lute without having pracised it - how distant do you think that is? Is a harpsichord so distant from the piano as to make comparisons invalid? Have a read of this little article: http://sologuitarist.net/tablature.htm It presents a few facts for you and you can see what early tab looked like. Paul, you are challenging me to prove tab's worth but that isn't my aim. I'm just correcting an assumption the notation came before tab. I'm not advocating the use of tab and I prefer notation myself. I don't need to provide evidence of use of tab in Spanish masters or modern institutions because that is not my concern. If it makes you feel more comfortable, I do believe people should learn standard notation if they want to get the most out of their musical education. Andy

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/28/2006 1:26:41 PM Christian Miller (1937) wrote: Well said. I like to make this point to yer classical types. ;-)

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 11:28:04 PM Craig Lindsey (5430) wrote: Wow, I learned plenty. Good discussion you guys...its what makes WN so valuable. I read a lot more than I contribute, for good reason. "Old dog learning tricks, or history..." Craig

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/24/2006 11:37:09 PM Bob Kent (10857) wrote: In Box

• Respond to this Re: Musical score 11/28/2006 1:25:35 PM Christian Miller (1937) wrote: Learn to read in position wihout shifts. Start in open position and work your way up. Also get used to how common guitar 'shapes'(blues boxes, arpeggios etc) look when written down. It's not easy but - hey - we have frets! You never hear cellists or violinists complaining. Having said that, it's the hardest thing I find to choose, whether to work on the ears (listening copying) or on the eyes (reading, writing, transcribing.) I'd rather have better ears than better reading chops, but both are useful. I have a friend who transcribes Bach onto the guitar by ear. Not a bad skill. I guess the secret is to be able to sing music from the score, then, when you hear it in your head, play it. I think this is basically what classical string players do - they have to! Best to start with really simple pieces based on the major scale steps. No short cuts to anything, but as a shredder, I'm sure you'll understand the importance of patience and methodical, directed practice.

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